Add a BLAST timer?

[c3k]

Gents,

I'm always having fun trying to coordinate my men while playing WeGo. Sometimes it's very hard. Other times it's harder.

I just tried using a SMAW team's demo charge to BLAST the side of a building so an assault element could gain entry without resorting to the building's doors. The enemy had units in other locations which were covering the approaches to the doors. The side I was trying to BLAST was out of LOS of any enemy. Pretty smart of me, huh?

It didn't work the way I wanted.

My SMAWmen got next to the building with their BLAST command. There they sat, doing whatever demo things needed doing. I'd assumed it'd take them a bit of time, say 30-45 seconds. So, my separate assault element left their cover after a suitable delay (PAUSE of 30 seconds). They had an ASSAULT order into the target building.

The demo did not go off in time, so my assault element continued to the doorway closest to them to enter the building. After the first team was in (and got fired at by the doorway), THEN the demo went off. Errr.

Is there any way to add a countdown over a BLAST unit which shows WHEN it will go boom?

I'd love to see it just like the PAUSE countdown, but with the word "BLAST" added to it.

Of couse, a little stopwatch would look cooler.

Or, allow an optional SET OFF AT :xx command. This would have the demo team prep the charge and then standby to set it off at the specified point in the next turn. Such as SET OFF AT :45. Then, I'd know that 45 seconds after the beginning of the turn (NOT 45 seconds after the team gets to the location) the demo will go off.

Thoughts?

Regards,

Ken

[cabal23]

Maybe I am oversimplifying things here but this is the only way i have found to do what you are saying efficiently. I have the demo team set up next to a wall. Then I have the assault team adjacent to the demo team. I set the demo team to breach the wall. Then set the assault team to pause for 15 sec. and then set their way point for the 1st level of the building being breached. What SHOULD happen is the breach goes off and both the demo team and the assault team enter at the same time. I have yet to own a room from doing that. The sheer number of men entering all at once usually will defeat a room full of soldiers.

[c3k]

Hmmm, that is what I'd LIKE to see happen but it doesn't. (Although I'm more than happy to be told what I'm doing wrong, I've been playing this game since it came out so I've got a little bit of experience.)

As I stated, it was a building, not a wall, that I was breaching. The coordination was important to prevent the assault from going into an available door. I'd set waypoints so that the closest entry would be the breached building side. I'd set a 30 or 45 second delay to ensure the breach would've been created by the time the assault reached the building side. The breach had NOT occurred by the time I'd been confident it would've.

So, it's a timing issue.

How do I know how long it will take to breach an obstacle? Right now it's a bit of hit or miss. How long will it take the breachers to reach the set-point? Once they reach it, how long until the begin the breaching process? Once they start the process, how long until the charge is detonated? Once they start, will incoming fire slow down, halt, or abort the process?

Thanks,

Ken

[Darkmage]

regarding breaching, just made me think has anyone seen their teams 'waste' a demo charge and then it not actually breach a wall? Seen that a few times myself. They 'hide' waiting for it to go off, and then just stand up and nothing happens, maybe it was a dud...

[Dietrich]

It seems odd to me that when you have a squad/team Blast through a wall, there's no cry of "fire in the hole!" or any sort of warning that an explosion is about the happen nearby (or, in the case of the squad/team doing the demo, right in front of them).

I agree that a clearer indication (if only approximate) of when the Blast command will be carried through would be better.

[cabal23]

I thought it took 15 sec to breach from time off command to breach. Also you said you were breaching a building not a wall. My question is istheir different breach times for different wall types? Isn't a building the same as a wall?

[c3k]

cabal23,

Time for breaching walls and buildings should be the same. (I'd think - no testing to verify.)

Perhaps it is 15 seconds from the time the sappers assume the breaching position (atbp). However, when will they atbp? They moved into position ((that caused an unknowable delay); there was enemy fire nearby which could've caused suppression (that was another possible unknowable delay); then they switched from their quick move to their BLAST move (that caused another unknowable delay as they quicked to that waypoint); then they BLAST moved to the wall (that move caused another unknowable delay)); they then atbp (what is the countdown there? does enemy fire cause a delay?).

So, the above sequence is a micro-examination of all the possible delays and time sinks when moving a sapper unit into position.

The BLAST command includes a movement portion; that portion changes based on distance and enemy interaction and terrain. That, plus any preparatory movements prior to the BLAST command (and the concommitant terrain, distance and enemy fire interactions) causes the demo charge's detonation time to be unknowable to the player.

In real life, the two elements, breach and assault, would be much better coordinated.

The two man SMAW breach team is too small and too valuable to actually assault INTO a possible enemy position, which is what happens with the BLAST command. (The movement INTO the obstacle following the blast.)

My attempt was to beef up assault element through the BLASTed building wall.

Regards,

Ken

[stoex]

Don't know whether this really helps anyone here, but I have noticed two things about the BLAST command that I find very interesting:

First off, BLAST is VERY different in TB vs. RT play - in RT, the blasting unit doesn't have to move to (or through) the breach after blasting. As soon as the charge goes off, I pause the game and delete the waypoint for the blasting unit. So they remain put and don't run to look at the cool hole they made, then find some more or less adequate place to hide. One of the reasons I can't make my peace with TB anymore .

Second, I have noticed that, when blasting adjacent holes in walls for vehicles to go through, after completing the first blast from an action point one away from the wall (and staying put), sometimes the blast team doesn't have to move at all to set the second charge, like they are throwing it at the wall from 15m away. Last seen in TF Narwick mission 3 (I think...the airport). Might have a save game if anyone is interested.

Furthermore:

...has anyone seen their teams 'waste' a demo charge and then it not actually breach a wall? ... maybe it was a dud...

I have seen this, but for me whenever it seemed to happen, the team hadn't actually used up one of their charges, though they do run up to the wall like they did. I think it is because I haven't placed the BLAST waypoint correctly...have you checked whether a charge is really used in the cases you described, Darkmage?

[Lanzfeld]

Was there an answer from Battlefront on this at all?

It seems they built it...they should know or provide some direction on this.

I may have missed the answer?

[MarkEzra]

Was there an answer from Battlefront on this at all?

It seems they built it...they should know or provide some direction on this.

I may have missed the answer?

Lanfeld: If Memory serves BFC was a tad busy in Mid December 2008.

It is good that this has been re-posted. Save files will be necessary to demonstrate these issues (I think we may be dealing with more than a simple time co-ordination issue but time plus pathing). I will review the test scen I've got and encourage others (C3K? ) to do the same.

Past discussions of this produced this current method so a cogent argument needs to be developed to encourage review and change.

[RadioactiveMan]

There is a fun old sci-fi squad level combat game called Laser Squad Nemesis that handles this problem of timing well. The game was played exclusively over email or hotseat for a long time, and only at the very end of the game's lifetime were single player missions created. I think because of the play-by-mail nature of the game the designers spent alot of time coming up with a solution to this very problem.

The game had a waypoint system very similar to Combat Mission, with the addition that when you placed a waypoint an estimate was shown of how long it would take for the unit to reach that location. You could have your guy run up to a corner, pause and look for targets, and then continue running on, with waypoints for each command telling you how long the actions would take to complete. It was easy to co-ordinate entry into a building from multiple directions simultaneously, to breach a wall and then run in immediately afterwards, or to pause supressive fire long enough to run your guys through the fire lane and resume fire afterwards.

The game also had a feature where you could "test" your turn's orders before actually submitting them. You could watch the turn unfold with the orders you had given, and see if there were any adjustments in timing that needed to be made.

Because of these two features it was possible to very tightly script your planned orders for the turn, and the strategy of the game revolved around doing this well as much as it did about unit choice and tactics. It was great fun to plan out a turn, only to watch your opponent plan out an equally detailed turn and then see who had anticipated who. Very much like a chess match, only with rockets and laser beams.

Long story short: It should be possible, and fairly straightforward, to add something that shows the time to reach a waypoint or to complete a command. The timing is of course theoretical, based on what is known of the ground, and can obviously not incorporate the effects of enemy fire.

[stoex]

If Memory serves BFC was a tad busy in Mid December 2008.

It is good that this has been re-posted. Save files will be necessary to demonstrate these issues (I think we may be dealing with more than a simple time co-ordination issue but time plus pathing). I will review the test scen I've got and encourage others (C3K? ) to do the same.

Past discussions of this produced this current method so a cogent argument needs to be developed to encourage review and change.

Actually, MarkEzra, the reason why I haven't pushed this any further is because for me the issue with the 'thrown blast charge' seems to have been resolved by v1.11. See the date of my last post in this thread...At least I haven't had any glitches with blasting since the last patch. Odd because it was not something addressed in the changelog for v1.11 directly - it could fall into the 'general unit pathfinding update' though...don't know.

If I find anything else strange about blasting I'll be sure to post it, of course. Cheers!

EDIT: Dang it! Typing before thinking again...I DID in fact have a slight problem with blasting again the other day. Forgot about it because in RT it only cost me a few seconds in the game, which would be different in WEGO. Again in TF Narwick, Battle 3 (Airport), replaying with v1.11 to see how new AI behaviour changes things .

Anyhow, I wanted to blast through a wall and run through. My squad was 1 action point away from the wall, I gave them the blast waypoint on the other side, and after thinking things over for maybe 5 seconds, the squad converted the BLAST command into a FAST command (orange line), turned and started sprinting for the nearest gap in the wall. I immediately stopped them, redid the order the exact same way - and the second time, it worked like a charm. So it didn't really bother me much but definitely an issue. No save game available unfortunately but might be recreatable. I'm on it. Cheers again!

[stoex]

Ok, back after a quick test with pretty clear results:

First off, it seems my recollection was simply wrong concerning the TF Narwick battle. My squad must actually have been too far away from the wall at my first blast attempt, then when I caught them running off for the faraway gap in the wall, they had obviously moved closer in the meantime and managed the second time around. Some part of the unit needs to be a max of one action spot away from the action spot the wall is on for it to work. This has been noted before.

What irks me a little bit is that blasting units need not ever get realistically close to a wall to blast a hole in it. In fact when they are one action spot away (amounts to 4m minimum since the wall is centered on its action spot), they don't move at all until the blast occurs. Hadn't really noticed this before as I usually am right up against the wall/building when I blast. Now I don't really know how doing this sort of thing works in RL, but I figure an engineer would have to be within arms reach of the wall to set the charge, wouldn't he? Would he also have to kneel or stand up? CMSF engineers can do it lying on the ground 4m away, in any case. Also, no safety distance from the blast is necessary in CMSF, they will blow a great big gap in a wall with their heads not 4 feet away, in the same action spot.

While I can certainly live with the approximation I see here, prone engineer vs. engineer getting up, running to the wall, setting the charge, running back and lying down would seem to certainly make a difference in terms of concealment. There would also seem to be a difference in terms of the time required for the entire action depending on the distance of the engineer from the wall. Takes about 11 seconds for a veteran squad, regardless of starting position, until the breach occurs.

Sorry if any or all of this has been mentioned before, I suppose it probably has . Just adding another voice...

[c3k]

Thanks for resurrecting this.

I still think a BLAST timer (or something else) which allows a coordinated breach/blow and assault would be a great addition.

I don't like the BLASTers having to be the ones that go through their hole first. I tend to lose my engineers rather quickly. I'd much rather be able to have them BLAST a hole, NOT go through it, then have an assault element from another squad go through. Coordinating this right now is trick, if it can be done at all.

A countdown over the BLAST waypoint which shows WHEN the 'boom' happens would help. Of course, a timer over the other unit's waypoint (the assaulters) would REALLY enable coordination.

Regards,

Ken

[handihoc]

BLAST command has definitely improved over time, but there is one problem I find, relating to WEGO and mentioned above by Stoex: directly after Blasting, sappers charge through the breach they've made. This can be a huge disadvantage, for obvious reasons.

Unless I've missed something, there is no way of preventing this (in WEGO), ie, having them stay put. I've had numerous examples where my guys have been shot to pieces because of this.

Implementing some form of Stay Put command would be a huge improvement here.

[handihoc]

OK, I see that c3k got there seconds before me.

[stikkypixie]

BLAST command has definitely improved over time, but there is one problem I find, relating to WEGO and mentioned above by Stoex: directly after Blasting, sappers charge through the breach they've made. This can be a huge disadvantage, for obvious reasons.

Unless I've missed something, there is no way of preventing this (in WEGO), ie, having them stay put. I've had numerous examples where my guys have been shot to pieces because of this.

Implementing some form of Stay Put command would be a huge improvement here.

You can put the Blast waypoint just before the wall, if it's close enough, the guys will blast it, but only run just up to the breach without entering it.

[handihoc]

Interesting. Thanks, I didn't know. Will try it.

[c3k]

stikkypixie,

How close? And will it work with exterior building walls? Interior building walls?

Thanks,

Ken

[stikkypixie]

Where I got my information from. Interior walls are not possible I think.