TOW problem re graphics

[John Kettler]

Was over in the best screenshot thread when I noticed a problem with the way the TOW's depicted. It's shown with a flame trail coming out of the back end while in terminal phase, but the flight motor nozzles are between the forward fins, as shown here.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/tow.htm

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/tow/

The last 10 seconds of this video show the missile side exhausts in use.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=e1_Tg1p5Xw0

8:26 here unambiguously shows the side exhausts in full use shortly after launch.

http://www.archive.org/details/tow_history

Regards,

John Kettler

[SgtMuhammed]

Yeah, it has been noted. There should actually be no flame at all in the termainal phase. The sustainer motor dies long before the missle reaches its target. The Javelin has the same error I believe.

[MikeyD]

I suspect they would've 'fixed' the TOW (and Kornet too) tail rocket thing IF the extra work involved would've cascaded down to later titles. But there's no WWII equivalent to TOW mid-body tandem rocket flames. fixing it would be a lot of work for just one application. In contrast, the Marine sniper got fancy new bolt-action rifle animations. Bolt action rifle animations are going to come in handy for a LOT of the upcoming CM titles, the labor will pay for itself over time.

About TOW tail flame, I shrug my shoulders and imagine its an over-animated tracking flair

[ChrisND]

About TOW tail flame, I shrug my shoulders and imagine its an over-animated tracking flair

Mr. TOW missile, we need to talk about your flair...

[SgtMuhammed]

If you're satisfied with only the minimum amount of flair Mr. TOW then that's ok, I'm just saying that we want you to express yourself.

[Secondbrooks]

About TOW tail flame, I shrug my shoulders and imagine its an over-animated tracking flair

Can't help it but to also me this seems to be bit pervert.

It seems that game-devs are intrested very much in overdone smoke and flame effects. CMx2 aint' onyl one to do this.

Then again i tend to overuse farthumor when in closed spaces.

[Darius359au]

Mr. TOW missile, we need to talk about your flair...

Of course its got flairs , it Was made in the 70's

[John Kettler]

Darius359au,

Actually, it doesn't. There's a xenon beacon in the aft end that the tracker sees. TOW 2 also has a "waffle iron" heat source which can be seen in the 8-12 micron region AKA FLIR band.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Darius359au]

Darius359au,

Actually, it doesn't. There's a xenon beacon in the aft end that the tracker sees. TOW 2 also has a "waffle iron" heat source which can be seen in the 8-12 micron region AKA FLIR band.

Regards,

John Kettler

Wrong Flairs, 70's ones --->

[John Kettler]

Darius359au,

"Flair" is what the guy had wearing those pants, then. They were called "flares," though, because the trouser legs flared, which was why they were also called "bell bottoms." Since the style also involved very slim legs above the flare, I had a terrible time buying pants back then, for the guys in my family have big, muscular thighs, leading to major fit issues. They were either suffocatingly tight at the thighs (imminent fear of ripping), or if they fit properly there, looked ridiculous at the waist, hips and rear. While I had friends who looked fabulous in the whole getup of the time, most of us were profoundly relieved when normal pants returned.

Regards,

John Kettler

[bodkin]

Is this serious, as I understand it the TOW missiles motors are active through the whole course of the flight to it's ordained end, who actually stops the game and zooms in to see if the exhaust is coming from the correct position on the missile?

Is it just me or am I missing something.

"I had friends who looked fabulous in the whole getup of the time, most of us were profoundly relieved when normal pants returned."

What!! next your going to tell me my platform shoes are not in fashion. pffhhhtt

[John Kettler]

bodkin,

The Range vs. Time and Velocity vs. Time plots (toward the bottom of the linked page)

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/tow.htm would seem to tell a different tale than the one you suggest: one of a missile which comes rapidly to peak velocity, followed by a steep decline, then a long coasting period at fairly constant velocity. I worked for the company, Hughes Missile Systems Group, that made the TOW, from 1978-1984 and participated in effectiveness analyses for various versions of this missile and associated launcher configurations, not to mention having watched tons of test and some combat footage. I therefore notice things others may not. The TOW doesn't steer by tiny one-time rocket blasts, as Dragon does/did, but instead relies on movable fins, thus steering aerodynamically. BTW, the plots are something of a kluge, I suspect deliberate, in that the velocity plot most nearly resembles an I-TOW, since any later model would exceed 300 meters/sec during boost, whereas the range could be for anything from an I-TOW up. Initially, only attack helos had the 3750 meter range missile, though this was later extended to ground mounts.

As for platform shoes, I think they're back, at least in some circles. My youngest brother still has his from the Disco Era!

Regards,

John Kettler

[bodkin]

John,

My question isn't so much about the flight dynamics of the TOW but rather how it is relevent to the game. Is the motor exhaust a graphic to aid the player in visualising the flight of the missile or does it actually effect the effectiveness. If it is only a visual thing I'm a little underwhelmed by the whole argument, if it's changing the missiles behaviour then it's an issue.

[Secondbrooks]

I think TOW and other not top-hitting missiles still makes "small" (quite high actually) curve up to sky before going down to line-of-aim in CMx2... which they should not (not atleast AT-4 and TOW). But does it matter anything? Most likely no.

[SgtMuhammed]

The TOW will normally dip slightly when launched until the control surfaces can stabilize it. It only takes a fraction of a second but you do notice it when the missile is fired because the speed elongates the movement. From there it kind of wiggles or corkscrews its way to the target depending on how much the gunner moves around. Generally though the flight path is straighter than in the game. We corrected it somewhat but it will probably never exactly match what a real TOW shot looks like.

What is funny about shooting the TOW is that through the sight the missile seems to be bouncing around all over the place. This is a combination of the high magnification and the nerves of the gunner. A lot of gunners, especially on their first real shots, get freaked out if they can't see the missile and will move the sight to peek for it. This is especially bad when tracking a rapidly moving target as the missile is sometimes just outside the cone of view as the gunner tracks the target. Needless to say when the gunner moves the site to peek for the missile it tells the missile to change course and upsets the aim. The gunner then has to get back on target which slews the missile even more and can cause it to bounce around the sight even more. This often causes the new gunner to try to fly the missile to stop it from moving about and normally only makes things worse. Because the missile is gliding to the target, too many course changes will make it lose energy and it will actually crash if you are attempting a particularly long shot.

I have also seen gunners get fixated on tracking the missile. When you look through the optical sight you see a big red dot, which is the IR emmitter at the back of the missile. It is hypnotic, like a flame to a moth, and new gunners, for some reason, feel the need to put the crosshairs on the red dot. Of course this steers the missile away from its previous path and makes the gunner track even farther. The result is usually that the missile makes a lovely righthand curve right into the ground. Spectacular but useless.

As to the representation in the game, no it doesn't make any difference but it is something for people to grip about since that's pretty much why most of us exist. The screenshot was a total accident. I was pausing to look at something else when I noticed this missile. That's the only thing I miss since I started playing mainly in RT, no more going back for those WTF or "Hey Neat!" moments.

[John Kettler]

SgtMuhammed,

Regarding the porpoising, if it were a plane being flown we'd call that PIO, for Pilot Induced Oscillation, and the cause is the same: loss of initial control, followed by over control. As you say, it can be a real headache for the TOW, but it was/is worse for the Dragon, since it had/has only a limited number of small reaction motors through which to make course corrections. If you got a little out of control with that missile, and your options narrowed in a hurry. As for the third paragraph, MCLOS gunners on a SACLOS system! And did I mention the TOW's much faster than, say, a SAGGER? Thus, smoothness becomes paramount, which is why the missile tracker is on a viscously damped mounting, precisely to eliminate as many jerks from the guidance process as possible.

Regards,

John Kettler

[MikeyD]

I heard stories that at least the older TOWs had a pretty low max crosswind rating. The scenarios with 'strong' winds probably shouldn't even be firing the weapon! Also, firing over open water (not applicable in this game of course) was iffy because the auto-tracker had a chance of locking onto the reflection instead of the beacon causing the missile to zing! off into space. My anecdotes are decades old. Fancy new electronics may have fixed all those old problems by now.

[SgtMuhammed]

What was real exciting was when the wire broke. We had one that we fired for the Secretary of Defense (it was Cheney back then) that broke as soon as it came out of the tube. The missile went straight up and just vanished. We still don't know where it finally landed. My buddy Kaelen was the gunner (he won a competition they had with all the TOW gunners in the battalion) and I was acting as his loader. After he fired the missile he was tracking the target while the rest of us were staring up at the moon shot. After about 15 seconds he told SSG Queen, the vehicle commander, that he could not see the missile. Still looking up SSG Queen said he could quit tracking since he doubted the missile would be back any time soon. Cheney just kind of shrugged and said that stuff happens. What sucks is that we had fired 3 perfect missiles THAT DAY to practice. I even got to do a combat reload and we managed to get two missiles off in about 40 seconds with two hits.

That afternoon our company was flooded with guys from Martin Marrietta who were interviewing us about what happened and taking apart all the pieces of the launcher.

John,

I loved Dragon live fires, I swear the thing flies so slow, or seems to, that you could probably push it out of the way to keep it from hitting you. I was an M60 gunner the last time I saw one fired and it was all I could do to keep from trying to shoot it down. It was pretty neat to hear it popping as it went down range.

[John Kettler]

MikeyD,

My understanding is that early TOW wires were also short prone over any but the smallest water obstacle. Also, underbrush ate guidance wire very well. I've seen comparisons between SPI's Fire Fight map and the actual Ft. Leavenworth exercise areas used to make the maps, and SPI cheated by removing that which didn't let TOW and other long range shooters shine. Hadn't heard of the beacon off the water issue, but my involvement with TOW was from the threat side of the fence, with the rest picked up from talking to people and attending numerous tech briefings.

Secondbrooks,

TOW 2 B, like BILL, is a top down attack missile, but it doesn't dive. Rather, it simply overflies the target by a few feet above it, whereupon the SFF warhead fires smack down though the turret roof armor--with devastating effect. Here's a TOW 2B live fire.

They say in the caption it's a T-62, but it's almost certainly a T-72, judging from tank width and the turret shape.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7f0_1223655721

SgtMuhammed,

Way too exciting with the runaway TOW! Didn't even know such a thing was possible. Impressive ROF. Here's a pop! pop! Dragon video for you

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=48e_1176592105

Found it in this article

http://xbradtc.wordpress.com/2008/07/01/dragon-tales/

Guys,

My favorite TOW story was when Suvorov, a recently minted GRU agent, was sent out to meet the "master spy" known by name to the General Secretary himself. Turned out to be an enterprising German farmer whose land lay just past the Graf ATGM range. Seems he was recovering spent exercise missiles which overshot from the woods, placing them in his cart with visual cover, then arranging to meet the Russians in the wee hours in the forest, complete with the Russian ambassador on hand to yell "Diplomatic immunity!" if needed while holding the authorities at bay long enough to clear the prize from the scene. Contrast this with Russian ATGM security in which every part was serially numbered, targets were surrounded by tarps, and after a firing, the entire area was meticulously policed for even the smallest part. Naturally, they were only too happy to take advantage of our unbelievable to them security laxity.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Secondbrooks]

Secondbrooks,

TOW 2 B, like BILL, is a top down attack missile, but it doesn't dive. Rather, it simply overflies the target by a few feet above it, whereupon the SFF warhead fires smack down though the turret roof armor--with devastating effect. Here's a TOW 2B live fire.

They say in the caption it's a T-62, but it's almost certainly a T-72, judging from tank width and the turret shape.

Yes. Like i said, It shouldn't do things it does in CMSF.

I havent' fired TOW myself, only one per squad (=one ATGM-system) during training and that was spared ofcourse for designated gunner of squad. It sure sucks to hear that some else can fire multiple of them in single day. I hate it that i'm supposed to lead squad but dont' have first hand experience of this vital job of what it is to fly real missile into it's target, sure i nailed armored suckers with simualtor but... Well it awesome to read what SgtMuhammed has to say.