Not Another AAR?! Tux Vs. Myglas

[Heinrich505]

Ahhhh, the old "shoot and scoot." Good luck with that. I rarely use it because it doesn't seem to work well for me. At this point, I would guess that your tank commander had reconnoitered forward on foot to the edge of the building, taken a good look at the T-34, figured out angles, and will be able to get off an aimed shot. Nice photo angle; really gives us a feel for the coming action.

Heinrich505

[Tux]

Really? I usually find it works quite well when you can't rely on your armour plate to shrug off any return fire...

Turn 5

Both the Pz IVs I have on the main flag are buttoned by the nearby explosion of a 122mm shell nearby, which also kills four members of a nearby squad. The shoot 'n' scoot movement still comes off without a hitch. Myglas' T-34 is still buttoned when my IVF 'Special' sneaks into view, and has yet to spot my tank when a 75mm shell crashes through its turret front:

My Panzer immediately retreats to safety between the buildings, and waits amidst the ongoing fighting. With a second to go of the minute the T-34's crew are observed abandoning their vehicle before their unseen attackers return.

My green Pz IV gains mixed results from his assault on the SU-122. My infantry fail to button the aforementioned SPG, and so it spots my buttoned Panzer momentarily before it is spotted in return. A Bloody great HE shell crashes into the tracks of my Panzer, immobilising it on the spot. In return my rookie crew have time to miss their first shot before putting their second through the upper hull of the SU:

I'm actually fairly happy with this - my immobile Panzer is in a fairly useful position, keyholed in several directions. It is going to be hard for Myglas to kill it from range without some seriously heavy artillery, so he basically needs to take the flag anyway to kill it. Until then I have an armoured, turreted, gun- and MG-armed pillbox sat on the flag.

Elsewhere my infantry continue to move into position unhindered, and a single Soviet infantry unit is spotted Advancing towards a hilltop in the distance:

Unfortunately, my halftrack only puts two 81mm mortar shells onto Myglas' gun's position before their HQ is suppressed and the Area Fire line cancelled. I'll have to re-assign them next go to finish it off.

[Der Alte Fritz]

I have really enjoyed reading this. But please can you get rid of that eyesore of a 'tank sound'. Cmmods have alternatives under my name of Uncle Tgt which look much better.

Carry on the good work!

[Tux]

During the orders phase for Turn 6 I've got my foremost Pz IV to S&S again with a view to hunting for the flanking armour hinted at by the sound contact visible in the second screenshot in the above post. I've also ordered my formeost Platoon HQ to relocate to a position from which he can sight for my Halftrack again.

Finally, my fourth tank, until now sitting in a position of limited use towards the rear of my forces, is rushing forwards to join the tank on my far right. In the next couple of turns I may try and push them through Myglas' flank, although I still want to know more about what he may have back there. I may sacrifice a scouting unit next turn.

[Tux]

Lol, I'll see if I can't do something about it, DAF. Any other requests?

[Joachim]

Your green PzIV is not in such a good position as you describe. If there is another 122mm chucker, he can just plaster the surroundings with 122mm. Area fire works well vs. Panthers, even better vs PzIVs. Targetting the 2-story house can even destroy the tank with "treebursts" - gun damage will do.

Shooting at the houses will first blind the tank in the dust and smoke, then have it sit on a plate.

Add that houses are not good cover vs direct HE once they drop, you might have a HE magnet there.

I'd guestimate the position of your spotting HQ if a barrage from a single tube stops during the turn. And that HQ is there, too.

[Tux]

Yup, the HQ has been ordered to relocate asap. There aren't too many positions from which Myglas can unleash a heavy HE barrage at my green tank's immediate vicinity unless he has it in an arty module. I am guessing that the second SU-122 that I've spotted in the distance is the only other of the type that he has.

Either way I'd obviously have preferred my tank not to get immobilised at all, but I think there are worse positions in which it could have happened.

[Joachim]

It's still a good trade-off: Immo'd vs ko'ed.

The enemy might even spend too many resources to get that easy kill. 122mm rounds hurt anywhere. And there aren't many of them.

[Tux]

Agreed. My green tank is still going to put another round or two into that SU though, just to make sure.

[Heinrich505]

Tux,

Nice job on the shoot and scoot. I had occasion to use it more in a desert battle just the other day, and it did work well. So, I'll be utilizing it more in the future.

If I had to have my Mark IV immobilized, I concur with you on the location. That being said, as noted by Joachim, 122s hurt anywhere. And a few more shots to make sure the SU is finished are certainly in order.

Tension is mounting.

Heinrich505

[John Kettler]

Tux,

Exciting fight and excellent combat productivity from a Green tank crew! Dead T-34 and a probably dead SU-122. Compared to the typical Panzer, you're way ahead in the game. For your sake, though, I hope he doesn't keep shooting at that Immobilized tank, since this is likely to cause the crew to bail. On balance, considering what appeared, how it appeared, and any number of bad things which could've happened, you're doing great.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Tux]

Thanks, although my green tank has only taken out the SU. The T-34 was taken out by another, regular Panzer IV just the other side of the large building.

Turn 6

Well I suppose I've given it away now, but yes, my green tank successfully finished of the SU in the opening seconds of Turn 6. At the same time, a second T-34 appeared inches to the side of the one I've just killed. It was apparently following a S&S order, because it stayed in position until my Panzer IV is just moving to gain LOS for a shot, and then it reversed back into cover.

One thing to note is that this T-34's commander is unbuttoned when he advances. Was the other one force to button by something I didn't notice? Was he afraid of snipers? Or is this Myglas learning a handy lesson the hard way?

Seconds after all of this, an enormous report rings out across the map and a 122mm shell lands a few metres from my advanced scout, hiding in the brush:

At least now I know where the other SU is, and what it can hit from its current position (namely not much of any use).

Finally, my forces spot further Russian infantry units advancing towards the building at A and moving away from the building at B:

I'm not worried for now, since I have a couple of squads and an HMG covering my left flank, but I'm aware of the possibility that Myglas intends to advance on my left flank, having distracted me with armour on my right.

In the orders phase I set my green Panzer to blow apart the building at A that Myglas' units are using for cover. I wish I could avoid the dust afterwards, but once the dust has settled that hilltop will be wide open for me to watch. My mortar halftrack is going to resume its bombardment of Myglas' gun's last known position.

I am also ordering my two Panzers on my far right straight into a flanking strike on Myglas' armour. The first leg uses 'Fast' in order to avoid prolonged LOS with Myglas' gun, should it still be alive. The second leg is 'Hunt'. Considering my tanks' long range optics advantage and the high muzzle velocity of their guns, this should allow the two tanks to kill the distant SU-122 (if it hasn't moved by the time they get a shot) before it does too much more damage and, if they achieve that quickly enough, gain a flank or rear shot on at least one T-34 which I know the whereabouts of. It's not entirely without risk though - I don't know what else Myglas has in the bowl on my right flank and I'm only hoping, really, that he couldn't afford any more dangerous AFVs. Ah well, he who dares wins...

Here we go then! Nice an' easy, Trig, know what I mean? Nice an' easy...

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Elmar Bijlsma,

He may be, but I sure wasn't. One would expect, all other readily observable things being equal, the nearer tank would've been targeted. Obviously, this doesn't always hold.

I should've added a "all things being vaguely equal" in there. Probably a point blank rear shot of a regular is going to get priority over an across the map shot at a frontal angle at a veteran. Wouldn't want to nail my colours to the mast on how the targeting routine weighs things though, it's been a while. But definitely unit cost is a major factor. Since unit cost factors in usefulness in most occasions it's a useful guide for the AI to calculate threat and/or desirability to KO targets.

Note, HQs are slightly more expensive then regular vehicles. So even if both tanks are regular, the HQ tank will get top billing on the hit list.

It took me a while to realize what was going on, which shows me how useful a routine it is. It wasn't till Wet Triangle in the ROW (V?) tournament that I identified it clearly. Until then I always chalked it up to sods law myself. But seeing my T-34/85s get KO-ed in order of how good they were really was obvious in that scenario.

[Joachim]

I exploited the AI target routine often. Cost is a factor. Bringing up well-armored, pricey assets that are hard (but possible) to kill mixed with less armored, cheaper assets (with a bigger gun) did work. As did having plts with one non-HQ tank being of better quality.

Other factors: Hit prob, kill chance, sticking to targets (as in: higher hit prob), limited borg spotting during a turn.

2 otherwise identical targets approaching while no target is fully acquired yet will lead to the more expensive one receiving incoming.

[Tux]

Before I start this post I'd like to apologise to Mylgas in advance (for when he reads this thread) for only just having realised that his name is Mylgas, not Myglas. Sorry mate - I didn't look properly.

Turn 7

Mylgas' forces are proving much harder to contain than expected. Both my flanking tanks spy and engage the distant SU-122 at the same time, and the three AFVs exchange a few shots without hitting each other. I'm quite happy for this to go on. Barring a gun, flank or track hit the SU is unlikely to harm either of my tanks, whilst being critically vulnerable itself.

After a couple of seconds though a third, familiar sound sends a chill down my spine. I only just notice it above the shattering roar that follows each 122mm round downrange, but it's definitely there - a dull but heavy thud every 4-5 seconds. Before I've heard it three or four times my tanks spot it and, as the drivers crash their suddenly fragile steeds into gear the gunners open fire on a new target.

Another bloody gun. Ye Gods! I hate AT guns! Thankfully, my tank crews are no dopes, and as the minute draws to a close they have each raced to shelter in the lee of a nearby building. I'm going to have to consider carefully how best to deal with this new obstacle.

Elsewhere Red infantrymen have been spotted occupying the third flag atop a nearby hilltop.

Apart from claiming a few points for Mylgas these units pose no immediate threat, and, once he's finished demolishing the more distant hilltop building and combined with several nearby infantry squads and MGs, my green tank should be ideally positioned to hold these units back indefinitely.

Finally, my SPW 251/2 has been hammering away at Mylgas' first gun. Unfortunately, bitter experience has taught me that a good two minutes of 81mm fire - especially from this range - is often required in order to kill a gun. That's fine by me - it'll give me time to arrange a position from which I can bombard the second gun, should it prove necessary.

[Joachim]

That 2nd gun ain't in good cover. And close counts with HE - but only vs soft targets. Some direct area fire towards a spot nearby might work fine. Just make sure the ATG can't see the firer. Read: Position the tanks so they can't see the ATG, but some spot about 5m away from it. As the ATG is on a forward slope, targeting a point behind it might work. The spread will see a few rounds fall short.

If that gun is near (<10m) that 2-story house, hoping for a lucky "treeburst" on the outer wall might work.

[Tux]

That's part of the idea. During my orders for Turn 8 I've ordered both Panzers forwards a few metres. I'm trying to get them to a point from which they can't quite see either gun, nor vice-versa obviously. At the same time, towards the end of this minute, my halftrack is going to reposition to a point within command of a lone, stealthy HQ who I am advancing towards a hilltop building near my Panzers, and who I hope will have LOS to both guns from there. Hopefully the HT will keep firing from its current position until it starts moving?

I'm also using my flanking Panzers' movement and combining it with a short 'hunt' order to my foremost regular Panzer in order to try and tighten the net on Mylgas' second T-34. The tank should then only be able to move within a circle of radius ~10m without being shot at by my tanks. If I'm lucky this is Mylgas' last tank - he'll have bought a platoon of the things but had one knocked out by the casualty settings...

Lastly my infantry are exploiting the T-34s enforced lack of mobility to redeploy to more effectively cover my left and centre. I've decided now that I think Mylgas moved only some of his amrour and a few scouts to my right - I don't think he plans a serious attack from that direction now that I've knocked the weight out of those tanks.

I await Turn 8 eagerly. It's time to start making some real progress in the next couple of turns, providing I haven't horribly misjudged any movements this time around. That's by no means certain: I don't feel 'on form' in this game and I consider myself lucky to have done so well so far, considering the circumstances under which I have 'discovered' all of Mylgas' big-hitters...

[John Kettler]

Joachim,

The building "treeburst" you describe is one reason why, in their Field Regulations, the Russians specifically prohibited setting up antitank guns near them.

Tux,

If you've got an antitank gun pinned, keep it down with MG fire. Save your limited mortar capability for important targets!

Regards,

John Kettler

[Joachim]

John,

IMHO the ATGs are the most valuable targets for a lone mortar here. Priority to the one in trees as a mortar is best suited to kill that one. Given the ranges towards the ATGs, HMG fire won't cause much effect and might not even keep those guns pinned if they are vet or in command.

Cover mainly consists of houses, which provide good cover vs 81mm from above. So I don't expect targets like bunched up inf in trees. OTOH once the armor and ATGs are gun Tux is free to maneuver his tanks and blast direct 75mm towards inf in houses - which has a bigger punch. Or use the tank MGs to kill inf in the open.

Gruß

Joachim

[John Kettler]

Joachim,

I concur that a gun in trees is an excellent, time urgent mortar target, much to be preferred to infantry in wooden houses. IRL, though, a short fuze delay WOULD ruin the house occupants' day. From JasonC's posts, I've come to realize that in the past I've wasted support fire when the pinning could've been kept in force via MGs. Was trying to prevent Tux from learning the hard way.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Joachim]

John,

Jason is correct in pinning units with MGs. But most of those tips are for attacking across the open, not for MEs with the target way behind the flags. Pin with HE, keep suppression with MG, finish off once close. But I doubt Tux ever wants to get in effective rifle range towards the ATGs.

If you are the attacker, you have the numbers. If you pin all enemy units with one of your units about the same points value (read: for an enemy force of 1000 pts you use 1000 pts worth to pin them), you still have significant forces maneuvering towards the enemy for the kill while the enemy does not shoot back or maneuver as he is completely pinned. In an ME, you have a draw as all of your units are occupied, too.

The risk of those ATGs leaving pinned status for a short time while there is a valuable target is too high. From my experience, ATGs or Schrecks do exactly that. They remain pinned while they can't do anything, no need to risk your life then. Seems that this is somehow modeled into the game. The same with pinned inf once something gets close.

81mm IRL.... yeah... but this is CM....

Gruß

Joachim

[Heinrich505]

Tux,

From your description, I knew exactly what was happening. AT guns, yeah, I hate em. Well, I hate them when the other guy has them. Yeesh, good thing your drivers knew what to do fast! Otherwise.....well, let's not go there. Suppress them with everything you can throw in the area. Knock that bad boy out.

I'd say the action is pretty good. I've got a feeling that Mylgas has some surprises up his sleeve. Be wary.

Heinrich505

[Tux]

I'm fairly confident that Mylgas does have some suprises left, but I've lost MEs in the past by being too cautious and waiting too long before I move because I want to know everything about the opposing force before I commit my units. On the other hand, I've also come very close to losing MEs when I've been too rash and overconfident. In particular, I think I can be far too aggressive with armour sometimes; I just like to keep my opponent on their toes.

John Kettler and Joachim, you both make good points. I used an HMG to maintain the initial pin that my tanks and mortar obtained on the first gun when I had to reposition the 'sighting' HQ, but it was at long range and so the effect was probably only moderate at best. The way I see things is that, as Joachim suggested, all of my current efforts are biased towards freeing up my armour. I am foregoing medium-range shots at advancing infantry in order to stalk Mylgas' remaining tank/s, shoo his second SU-122 off that distant hilltop and get-the-bloody-hell-rid of his two dangerously positioned AT guns. If and when I achieve this I can then bring all assets to bear on his infantry and I shall win the fight. Combine all this with the fact that his infantry aren't massively vulnerable to mortars at the moment, aren't likely to be in the future, and that I have 50 HE rounds left in my halftrack and you can see why I am happy to keep going at the guns with that particular asset. Mortar HT kills guns to free up tanks, which kill Mylgas' tanks to free up infantry, which combine with remaining mortars and tanks to kill Mylgas.

[Leprechaun]

Good AAR. I agree that getting rid of the AT guns should be the mortar's top priority. You are aware of the trick about knowing whether a unit that is unspotted is dead r not. If not check out this link http://www.theblitz.org/message_boards/showthread.php?tid=41649

[Bert Hamoen]

Tux,

were you aware the targeting routine is programmed to go after the most expensive thing, point wise? This means veteran tanks get targeted before regular, heavy tank before light tank, etc.

Are you sure this is true ? I've read a couple of times that, as a "tip" playing against the AI with T34's you should lead with your Panzers III and follow with your Panzers IV. The Panzers III would attract the fire and could cope with this better then the Panzers IV due to

their thicker frontal armour, and the Panzers IV would KO the T34's with their long 75 mm guns. So, if this tactic is valid/true, obviously the targeting routing wouldn't go for the highest points unit, but for the easiest to hit unit.