Release Strategy

[Hawk66]

Hi,

sorry for bringing this up ...I know it was already discussed in length but I'm still confused:

Regarding the release strategy of the CMx2 engine:

So, what I've understood is that the next major release will be a WWII scenario and that the CMSF series are still supported.

But does that mean, that there will 'only' be new modules and patches but no major releases for the modern area (with major releases I mean completely new theaters (like Vietnam etc.), new major features like an improved quick battle generator or major graphic updates etc.) ?

Or is it planned that there is only one major release for the modern/WWII area and all new theaters/major improvements are delivered as modules?

Thanks in advance for the clarification.

[Mord]

I can say that Steve did drop a hint saying there'd be a modern era title set in a temperate climate (Non desert)...which surprised a lot of us. It's most likely a ways down the road and we have no idea where it may take place, so speculating could be very fun.

I for one, pray we will see Nam. No one has ever attempted it in any way that was worthwhile (except maybe Seal Team) and on a level like CMx2. It would be the penultimate addition to the CM legacy. Korea would be my other big wish.

I imagine WWII could go many ways. Hopefully they'll answer that. I hope at least with Europe we'll see Market Garden, and The Bulge, after Normandy, however they may be delivered, title or module. Something like Eastern Front will definitely be a title.

I don't care how many modules/titles it takes, I'll pay 5X, 10X as much if that's what will get me everything I had in CMBO.

Mord.

[Hawk66]

It doesn't matter for me how the content is delivered...as long as there will be new content for the modern area (hm, I consider 'modern' personally beginning with 'NAM)

[Mord]

As far as the modern temperate setting I mentioned, I think he was talking modern modern LOL, like with Abrams and stuff.

I agree though, I've pretty much considered Nam being the beginning of the modern era for warfare...but man, the further along we get the more that time period seems to become antiquated.

Anyways, we'll be seeing a few more things before CMSF goes the way of the Dodo. There's still the Brits, and possibly the Germans/Dutch/Canadians or whatever it was and hopefully some changes to the setting itself like bridges and water.

Be interesting to see what they decide on for another modern setting.

Mord.

[Combatintman]

Nam = jungle and therefore framerates. Do you really thing the gameplay would be that good? To be honest I think it'd cause more trouble than its worth.

Korean War - its just WW2 really - so long as you can do Blue on Blue engagements with Soviet vs US and Commonwealth that's pretty much covered.

Personally I'd go for the Bush/Colonial Wars in Africa/Middle East - think mercenaries, Rhodesia, South Africa, Portugal in Angola/Mozambique etc, the French in Algeria, Chad, etc, the Brits in Aden and Oman.

Next up would be the Arab Israeli Wars 56 (with the Brits and French as well) 67 and 73 plus the Lebanon ... there's even Americans in that one!

[Mord]

Nam = jungle and therefore framerates. Do you really thing the gameplay would be that good?

Yep. I think it would rule. If anything, I think BFC has proven once they tackle a setting they do it right. How many people sat around here and cried at how un-fun CMSF was gonna be when they found out the setting...even before they played it? I have had a great time with it. I'll probably have a great time with anything they do. I become interested because the dedication to detail and accuracy captures my imagination and makes me want to play and learn more.

Korean War - its just WW2 really -

That much easier to make. I think it would be a blast. Plus how many WWII games out there that have given China or Korea a chance? Steel Panthers? LOL.

Personally I'd go for the Bush/Colonial Wars in Africa/Middle East - think mercenaries, Rhodesia, South Africa, Portugal in Angola/Mozambique etc, the French in Algeria, Chad, etc, the Brits in Aden and Oman.

I was gonna mention Angola but figured it was too obscure. Be cool though, but I doubt it would be a seller. I would be interested in Algeria too. Actually, most of those.

Mord.

[dan/california]

Well, a U.S.-Russian clash in either the Caucuses or the Ukraine just got a whole lot easier to work up the back story for.

[hammelman]

I don't ever foresee a Vietnam title. I don't think you will ever see many major titles based on it as there were so few set piece battles. Sure I could name a few, Ia Drang, Hue, Khe Sahn, Ambush Valley. For the most part the war was fought in small unit ambushes within major sweeps/operations that accomplished very little. I think it would be hard to model a game down to a war which was essentially fought at the platoon level - especially for this crowd which is accustomed to fighting on the company/battalion + scale of things. For one thing the maps couldn't be that big because of the nature of jungle warfare - i mean sure you could maneuver a company around a field until you found some fixed positions, but it was generally the case that an ambush would happen and then the enemy would disappear without the rest of the unit having time to become involved. Also the nightmare of putting helicopters into the battle from BFC's pespective, and then how would you effectively handle those choppers? would you use the gun ships as you would modern aircraft in standoff, or would you move them around as you would a vehicle on the ground so that you could use them effectively? As i stated i just don't see it.

Also, America lost the war which i think is another reason you don't see games on this subject much. Who wants to make a game where you have all the superior arms and formations, and yet no matter how hard you try you know that that the war was lost? Just my .25 Cents.

[Combatintman]

Mord,

You can have 'Nam then if I get Malaya and the Borneo/Indonesian Confrontation!

dan/california

You can pretty much do the US/Russia thing now though - certainly it would be better with a European building set and it has been mentioned that there may be a future European setting so you're getting that already if the rumour is right.

For me I still think the Africa thing holds out the most variety and possibilities and yes it can be done to an extent now with Red on Red stuff but I would love to see the Portugese Army of the 60's & 70's done, the Rhodesian Army of the same timeframe done and the South African Army of the 70's & 80's done.

[SlapHappy]

First of all, the new philosophy about future CM:2 games has been that they will be focused more specifically on smaller segments of an overall theatre of operation. So instead of say, the whole Eastern Front, you get an operational time period like summer '44 pr something along those lines. So when you're talking Vietnam you could do the Highlands during the Easter Offensive:

-Small time increment but with high intensity fighting

-Not as intensive terrain-wise like the Mekong Delta

-Could be very challenging playing RVN vs. motivated NV forces

-Could model effects of US advisors and air-logistics support

-Scale is large, but not overwhelmingly so, should work nicely in a company level game

I just finished a great book written by a US Marine Colonel who ended up in the hotseat commanding US Army advisors when all hell broke loose during the NV attempt to drive on the northern provinces. The detailed info in that book leads me to the conclusion that in scope it could work within the concept of the CM2 engine.

Of course, all that being said, it appears BFC and Steve have said on numerous occasions that they have no interest in simulating any Vietnam conflict. Having no reason to believe he would claim that if it weren't true, I wouldn't hold my breath for such a game.

[Mord]

Mord,

You can have 'Nam then if I get Malaya and the Borneo/Indonesian Confrontation!

Deal.

I am with you on Africa. It's one of those areas I have really started to take an interest in.

Mord.

[hoolaman]

I can say that Steve did drop a hint saying there'd be a modern era title set in a temperate climate (Non desert)...which surprised a lot of us. It's most likely a ways down the road and we have no idea where it may take place, so speculating could be very fun.

Mord.

Reading between the lines, I guess the idea is for all the effort of programming and modeling to build up and leverage off itself in these later titles. So I guess at some point active development of CMSF will have to finish so the guys can move on to the next big thing. The WW2 game and its modules will take precedence.

When they have terrain suitable for Europe, and all the models for modern vehicles from CMSF, it should be a lot quicker to put out a new temperate modern game with all the improvements of the ww2 title.

In maybe three years time I expect we will have a trilogy of games that look a bit like CMBO, BB, AK, with a sprinkling of modules in between.

The poor antiquated cousin will be CMSF. The real gold standard will be CMx2:WW2, then the sort of a rehash of stuff from the other two will be the temperate modern game, a bit like CMAK.

Who knows, maybe if they make a modern game set in Europe, they can add Space lobsters as a module: The world unites to face an alien invasion across the Russian steppes.

[Combatintman]

Mord,

Always been interested in it especially Rhodesia (try Fireforce by Chris Cocks - a very good book indeed) but have read a lot more widely around it now - Mozambique, Angola and South West Africa and Algeria. Also reading about Executive Outcomes in Angola and Sierra Leone. Renewed interest has been sparked by the possibilities of this game - especially the guys making Red on Red scenarios. Executive Outcomes in Angola for instance I reckon would be doable as a Red on Red campaign.

[Mord]

@Hoolman...Makes sense.

As far as Space Lobsters. They should take on Harry Turtledove's books, where the Lizards invade during WWII.

@Combatintman Thanks for the name, I'll have to check that out. Is it first person? those are my favorite kind of war books.

Executive Outcomes....BAD MOFOs. I know about those guys. Saw a really good doc on the Military Channel that featured them.

Mord.

[Combatintman]

Yep it is - the subtitle of Fireforce is 'One Man's War in the Rhodesian Light Infantry'

[theFightingSeabee]

Hue City Campaign

[Combatintman]

Hue City campaign - how many missions would we get out of that then? I fully confess I'm not an American and to be honest I'm over it and I understand why you're proud to be American but there is so much more out there than wars that Americans took part in. Case in point and I can't remember the forum but there was a clip of a Rhodesian raid in Mozambique or Zambia - all the good stuff on show - bombers, tactical air, heliborne air assaults, gunships and special forces. Some American guy came up and said ... 'cool what was the US involvement?' The quite vitriolic and truthful answer was 'none'

Makes me despair.

[thewood]

I would suggest your reaction to Hue City is not much different than the one you are complaining about.

[Combatintman]

Oh no - there were definitely Americans there. But module or campaign material?

[thewood]

Hue had all the elements for a good CM-type operation. It had almost continuous combat over days. It included significant forces on all sides in traditional urban combat. It would seem the most logical modern-era setting for a CMSF-type game. I can think of at least 6 or 7 scenarios off the top off my head.

It is also the place the USMC learned the most about modern urban warfare. Google can be a friend here.

[hammelman]

If you're looking for a book on the battle for Hue my dad happened to have written one called, Fire in The Streets - Eric Hammel. I'm pretty sure there are copies of it floating around.