Russia vs. Georgia

[Cpl Steiner]

The escalating conflict between Russia and Georgia over the breakaway "South Ossetia" region could be rich pickings for a Red vs. Red campaign once the dust settles. Does any one know what sort of equipment Georgia possesses?

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Wiki has that info here.

If you look at the equiment and that in CMSF it's almost like they are having this conflict for our benefit.

[slug88]

Unfortunately we don't have T-80's yet, and won't for quite a while. That seems to be the only missing element.

Edit- This page is currently being updated with the believed composition of each side's ground forces in the conflict: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_South_Ossetia_%282008%29#Weapons

[handihoc]

One for Paper Tiger, I hope!

[The_Red_Rage]

PaperTiger,

We are looking at YOU:)

Russian sources list different force balance from wiki.

Georgians:

Organizational armed forces of Georgia will consist of a land forces, military-air forces and the Navies. According to official data of the Georgian military department, their total numberis 29 thousand personnel. The trained reserve is totaled more than 100 thousand personnel. In connection with the beginning of an armed confrontation against Southern Ossetia, authorities of Georgia had already begun their partial mobilization. The Georgian land forces consist of five infantry brigades, several separate infantry battalions, the artillery brigade, the separate tank battalion, a separate battalion of the radio-electronic survelliance, a separate engineering battalion and a separate medical battalion.

There are 165 tanks T-72 and Т-55, no less than 78 IFVs (BMP-1/2), 11 recon cars BRDM-1 and 91 armored troop-carriers (i assume either Turkish Cobras or BMPs, details are sketchy). Cannon artillery of various calibres totals to more than 200 units. Mortars - 180 units. The quantity of rocket artillery exceeds 40 units.

Air Assets: 10 SU-25KM which have been modernized together with Israeli company Elbit System, as well as 2 learners SU-25UB, 6 L-39 and 9 L-29. The helicopter park consists of 28 "Мi" various modifications, including not less than 3 MI-24, as well as 6 transport Bell-212 and 6 UH-1H.

South Ossetia:

South Ossetian army is significantly less in size than the Georgian adversary. Number of armed forces in an unrecognized republic is 3 thousand regulars and 15 thousand reservists. 1 thousand volounteers are heading down there from Abkhazia. Volounteer units are being formed in North Ossetia and inside Russia.

Equipment wise South Ossetia posesses 87 tanks T-72 and Т-55, 95 artillery units and mortars, including 72 howitzers, 23 rocket artillery complexes BM-21 (GRAD), as well as 180 armoured cars, including 80 fighting cars for infantry (BMP1/2 i assume).

Air Assets: No strike aircraft; 3 MI-8 transport helos

Russian North Caucasus Military District:

According to last reports, in the armed opposition between Georgia and South Ossetia Russia has interfered. Armoured units of the North-Caucasian military district moved into South Ossetia to reiforce the Russian peacekeeping contingent already on the ground.

NCMD forces include 58-th Army, 20-th motorized rifle division, 7-th VDV, separate helicopter regiments and squadrons, antiaircraft rocket brigades and various other support and logistical units.

58-th army stucture includes two mechanized divisions, separate MTR regiment, five separate MTR brigades, including two mountain, a brigade of strategic and tactical missle batteries, as well as several artillery brigades.

Manpower of the North-Caucasian military district exceeds 100 thousand men. Equipment: available about 620 tanks, 200 IFVs and 875 artillery systems, including heavy rocket artillery.

Air assets: 4th Air army is tasked with strikes on Geogian positions. 4th has 60 SU-24, 100 Mig-29, 60 SU-27, 100 SU-25, 40 light strikers L-39 and 30, recoinassance SU-24МR, 75 Mi-24s, various supporting aircraft.

[Paper Tiger]

Yes, I could see me doing a few 'macro scenarios' based on this conflict. The new Syrian equipment would probably be very useful here. I'll use some of my spare time at the office to get information on this conflict so that it doesn't have too many glaring inaccuracies.

[akd]

Well, would be a shame without air support...

[LongLeftFlank]

I for one would not wish to fight the Georgians on their (extremely rugged) home turf. The Chechens have nothing on them when it comes to stubborn and clannish. Think Highlander with better wine. Not to mention better a good overseas support/financing network in Greece, Romania and elsewhere.

IIRC the Czar's armies found that out the hard way in the 16th-19th centuries, as did the Turks and some other would-be conquerors. There's a reason the Georgians never got converted to Islam.

I hereby punt to BigDuke6 for further commentary.

[The_Red_Rage]

South Ossetians are on their home turf too, so are North Ossetian and Abkhaz volonteers. Russian 58th army is a very capable fighting force as well, composed of many Chechen war vets and with experienced officer staff.

In any case it won't be pretty, but considering that 60% of Georgia's trade is with Russia, I can't see this warmongering going well for them.

[John Kettler]

The Wikis are pretty impressive and detailed, and are some people ever quick, but I'm sure I saw Russian T-80s in one of the vids. How can I be sure? The characteristic flipped up commander's hatch with the friendly laser protecting vision block in it. This allows the TC to view the battlefield while friendly LRFs are being used and not get his eyes zapped in the process.

Needless to say, while as a scenario it may be fun and interesting, I sure wish peaceful means could've been found to resolve this matter!

Somewhere around this Forum is a thread I posted in which I suggested some real possibilities for mods based on the earlier Georgian-Moldovan War, even if we had to substitute T-72s for T-64s.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Guest Guest]

deleted per user request

[blow56]

I did one some time ago, based on events then (since I am an ex-journo who specialised in war zones, I can smell a conflict a long way off). I posited a UN intervention in support of Georgia using Marines landing at Batumi (securing the oil-fields there) and moving north. I did a three or four game campaign. Frankly, the idea was sound and the maps fine, but it was my first attempts at a campaign and was not very good. I may go back and re-do it post-Sept, when my copy of Marine SF comes through!

I did, however, use certain Georgian forces trained by the US under the GTEP (Georgia Train and Equip Program) so you should not overlook these. Begun in 2004, the Georgian units trained up and equipped include the 12th "Commando" Light Infantry Battalion, 16th Mountain-Infantry Battalion, 13th "Shavnabada" Light Infantry Battalion, 11th Light Infantry Battalion, a mechanized company and small numbers of Interior Ministry troops and border guards. Part of this was to get Georgian forces upgraded as part of the multi-national force in Iraq. The program ended in 2007.

Allegedly.

Rob

[jomni]

Georgia has Israeli Arms.

[blow56]

So? This is the Tavor TAR-21, as far as I can tell, a bullpup design, red-dot targeting sight, standard NATO 5.56mm ammo. The Israelis used it to change over from the US M16 and many of the TAR-21 parts are similar. Columbia, Guatemala, India, Portugal and Thailand all use the TAR-21 as well as Georgia. What is your point here?

Rob

[akd]

They also have (or rather had) Israeli UAVs and Israeli electronics upgrades in their tanks. Georgia has purchased arms from Czech Republic, US, Ukraine, Turkey, Israel and possibly others.

[The_Red_Rage]

Israel has direct stake in Georgian pipelines so there are as many Israeli observers/instructors as there are American. Georgian Su-25s had been upgraded by Israel as well (air strike near Tbilisi was aimed at the upgrade facility). Georgian tanks had also been equiped with Israeli upgrade packages.

Interesting item list - equipment abandoned by fleeing Georgians in Gori and Senaki and captured by Russians:

Senaki:

1728 units of small arms: 764 M-16 , 28 M-40 machineguns (i assume it's m240), 754 AKs of various makes. Hence the new joke "One American M-16 for sale, never fired, dropped once".

Gori:

15 tanks;

"Dozens" of artillery units, armored cars (Cobras?! Turkey sold those Humvee ripoffs at absolutely redicolous price to Georgia), ATGMs, as well as alot of stored munitions;

AA Complexes of various configurations;

Now, all this stuff was COMPLETELY unguarded for a period between Georgian retreat and Russians moving in.

[jomni]

So? What is your point here?

Rob

i think it's useful info for those making a scenario of the conflict...