Defensive Tactics Mission. WTFMATE

[InvaderCanuck]

First off.

I love the demo.

Second.

This is the long anticipated 3d CC successor i've been waiting for.

Third.

I swear to god the Germans have frickin' lazer beams on their heads in this map.

I've run it so many times. My Paks are repositioned to the right side of the map. Holding fire. Instantly I am taking mass quantities of fire. Within 30 seconds both PAK's are KO'd.

The only way I have found that I can keep them alive till the Panzers are in closer is to disembark them immediatly.

This still hasn't changed the outcome one iota. While re-occupying the guns the lazers again pew pew me into non-existence.

Is it just dumb luck that the PAKs survive long enough to do much of anything?

I looked at the "walkthrough" and the whole "move your paks to the right side by the trees so you can avoid being spotted" is just frustrating because no matter where I put those guns they are instantly nuked.

[Panzerfest]

Ive tried it 4 times with no luck, managed to take the last 2 tanks out with ATRs but by then all my rifle men were toast.

Anyone got any tips?

[MikoyanPT]

Originally posted by Panzerfest:

Ive tried it 4 times with no luck, managed to take the last 2 tanks out with ATRs but by then all my rifle men were toast.

Anyone got any tips?

Well i managed to take the 2 panzer 3 whith lucky shots from the AT guns (positioned right as far away behind as possible. I ordered them to shoot on the tracks, they knocked out the first in five seconds ( lucky me) blown the tracks of the second. The scenario finished whith that tank still shooting at me, the panzer II where a piece of cake to the at guns. That said, i tryed that scenario around 10 times and after hitting the quick save F5 and F6 quick load alot.

But in the second part of the scenario, your two new at guns and infantry break the enemy infantry attack, to be blown off 5 to 10 seconds after 3 new panzer III arrive. :eek:

In conclusion, yep they got laser beams allright.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Yeah, it's a toughie all right. It isn't supposed to be, the PzIII crews are regulars not elites, I checked. Why they are that accurate? I don't know.

It is beatable, but it takes some doing and a deeper knowledge of the game comes in handy.

Some tips:

-Don't start shooting at the first sighting, hold your fire till you think you can get a good shot off.

-Use the APCR rounds on the PzIIIs as early as possible. You want them dead ASAP.

-Have your AT rifles focus on the PzIIs, the only thing they can reliably kill. Focus the 45mm guns on the PzIIIs.

-If your gun crews get killed, have replacements near by but don't go recrewing the guns until the PzIIIs are moving again. If they remain still they'll only hit your gun again when you re-man it. When moving they miss their first shots more often.

[InvaderCanuck]

I generally hold fire on all units until they begin to cross the trees on the opposite side of the field.

I have no problems killing one or two II's but no matter where I tend to put my PAK's they get obliterated within a few seconds.

[gunnersman]

THE APCR ROUNDS!!!! I FORGOT ABOUT THE APCR ROUNDS!!!!

*sigh*

[iplaygames2]

I've beaten that first wave lots of times. But, no matter what I do, the 2nd part of that scenario rocks my world. I clear out the infantry wave but once the 3 tanks pop up I'm toast.

I've beaten all of the tutorial missions and the battle, but that one mission is just near impossible for me, it seems. Not to mention so much of it is luck (do my shots hit, do they penetrate, and if so, do they disable?). Seems the PzIIIs are boresighted onto my positions.

[gunnersman]

One tactic I have used in other scenarios and works very well (and only works if your gunner has any decent skill rating) is to aim for the turret and disable the gun. You can do this by clicking on middle right side of the "target" command where the three smaller cross hairs are. You can also do this by clicking Alt-1 (Alt-2 is for hull shots, Alt-3 is for the tread/wheels...if I recall correctly)

[Field Marshal Blücher]

I have similar issues with this . . . even if I hold my fire, somehow the Pzkpfw IIIs still spot me! ARGH!

I actually found that the AT rifles saved my life, rather than only being useful against the Pzkpfw IIs. The only reason I haven't beaten this yet is that my lone AT rifleman in the second bit runs out of ammo (and yes, he is holding his fire until he gets a good chance of hitting).

[Mastiff]

still can not finish or even get it start the dman crews are wiped out the first 4 shots.

I have even taken steps to put the infant in crawl and use there tank grenades i get 3 tanks but those 2 PIII still wreek my infants and at guns.

[Madmatt]

Maybe we ratcheted up the difficulty on that one just a wee bit much? We wanted it to be challenging though because its an important concept to drive home... We can always tweak it for the future though if overall consensus seems to indicate thats its too unbalanced.

Madmatt

[Preacher]

It is amazingly, unbelievably unbalanced.

The Last Frontier scenario on veteran is much easier to win than the defensive tactics training mission.

Ricky

[CBR]

I didn't feel I could do much in the second part. When the tanks showed up my AT guns were gone very quickly, although I shifted fire and used APCR right away.

CBR

[BFawlty]

Ditto all of the above here. Extremely frustrating. Too bad there isn't a way to put the guns in a better defensive position, i.e. in the trench or a fortified position of some sort. I feel real naked out there in the open.

BF

[Mastiff]

as soon as I click on start the at guns die right away. WTF over?

[Lanzfeld]

The problem is that the infantry and the AT guns cant hide. I tried to lay my boys still in the grass to maybe try a grenade attack when the panzers came by but they were always spotted and killed. Even though I had them "Hold Ground" and "Don't fire" they always are seen. Why do they always go from prone to on a knee and then prone every few seconds? Sit the F*U*C*K still! No wonder they are seen.

I am "kind of" enjoying the demo but the lack of anything to hide in or around is really going to hurt this game in the long run. It just feels way to open for any infantry.

[ April 18, 2007, 09:28 PM: Message edited by: Lanzfeld ]

[Moon]

Some additional things to try:

- position the AT guns near the trench and abandon them immediately when the scenario starts, telling the crew to get into the trench. Wait for the tanks to come closer before opening fire.

- position the guns way back in the setup zone and have them move into cover, towards the houses in the rear for example. Not saying it will work, but it's worth a try

Martin

[Lord_Simmox]

Some additional things to try:

- position the AT guns near the trench and abandon them immediately when the scenario starts, telling the crew to get into the trench. Wait for the tanks to come closer before opening fire.

- position the guns way back in the setup zone and have them move into cover, towards the houses in the rear for example. Not saying it will work, but it's worth a try [smile]

Martin

step 1 did it for me.a rather beardy way of achieving the result but effective nonetheless

[MikoyanPT]

Those Panzer III gunners are like the Beholder in dungeon and dragons, they kill you with their eyesight alone. :eek:

No use to hold fire on that scenario ( they shoot you anyway), or APCR rounds,or aiming to a particular point,our gunners have around 50 to 60 gunnery skill, surviving the first onslaught is a great deal of luck alone.

But when the second wave of 3 Beholders III arrives, you can pack your bags.

[Moon]

Originally posted by Lord_Simmox:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Some additional things to try:

- position the AT guns near the trench and abandon them immediately when the scenario starts, telling the crew to get into the trench. Wait for the tanks to come closer before opening fire.

- position the guns way back in the setup zone and have them move into cover, towards the houses in the rear for example. Not saying it will work, but it's worth a try [smile]

Martin

step 1 did it for me.a rather beardy way of achieving the result but effective nonetheless </font>

[Sickie]

In the briefing for this mission, there's a map that shows two trenches next to each other and two "attackarrows". Ingame there is a trench to my right but I can't occupy his, not only do I not have the troops; it also hasn't got the checkerboardpattern.

I was wondering; Coul it be that something has gone wrong and that it was originally the plan to have the two waves attacking two trenches simoultaniously?

I sure hope so. Other options wouldn't be too good for my ego....

[MikoyanPT]

Originally posted by Sickie:

In the briefing for this mission, there's a map that shows two trenches next to each other and two "attackarrows". Ingame there is a trench to my right but I can't occupy his, not only do I not have the troops; it also hasn't got the checkerboardpattern.

I was wondering; Coul it be that something has gone wrong and that it was originally the plan to have the two waves attacking two trenches simoultaniously?

I sure hope so. Other options wouldn't be too good for my ego....

Nope, second trench for second wave.

Your ego can relax, there are two viable theories out there.

1- The panzer III have attached laser beams to their guns.

2- Beholder from dungeons and dragons are driving the tanks and shoot you with their eyes.

3- You can add a theorie there.

[ April 19, 2007, 02:42 AM: Message edited by: MikoyanPT ]

[Pascal DI FOLCO]

Originally posted by Lanzfeld:

The problem is that the infantry and the AT guns cant hide. I tried to lay my boys still in the grass to maybe try a grenade attack when the panzers came by but they were always spotted and killed. Even though I had them "Hold Ground" and "Don't fire" they always are seen. Why do they always go from prone to on a knee and then prone every few seconds? Sit the F*U*C*K still! No wonder they are seen.

I am "kind of" enjoying the demo but the lack of anything to hide in or around is really going to hurt this game in the long run. It just feels way to open for any infantry.

For me this problem is a total game-breaker. Unhideable ATGs in plain open view of every Panzer at 400m are totally unrealistic as well as useless. Same for infantry, the trenches don't seem to protect much !

Overall with the training scens setup it's much easier to take a fortified position than to defend it...

On paper the matchup looks balanced, with the attacker lacking infantry but having 4 tanks, the success depending on the ATG/ATR vs tanks duels. But the game seems to pretty badly simulate the defender's edge, and the AT thingies get killed in a matter of seconds !

The same matchup on CM should have a pretty different result ...

[FinnN]

Once you make it past the first wave the second wave appears to attack that trench, along with a fresh set of troops.

I haven't tried the hide in the trench idea yet, but so far haven't made it to the end. I've tried positioning the AT guns all over the area where the trees are, holding fire/position and they get spotted and slaughtered almost immediately 9 times out of ten. So far only shooting straight away and hoping for a couple of lucky shots has got me past the first wave. The other AT guns usually get hit before I can even click on them, never mind hide or shoot back! Getting past this one seems to be more down to luck than anything else. Holding fire with the AT rifles until the last minute works though, and I've had some luck with sneaking around with grenades once the tanks get really close - but there are just too many to deal with once the 45mm guns go. Being force to setup in the open on the front of shallow rise certainly doesn't help at all!

Have fun

Finn

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Originally posted by Pascal DI FOLCO:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Lanzfeld:

The problem is that the infantry and the AT guns cant hide. I tried to lay my boys still in the grass to maybe try a grenade attack when the panzers came by but they were always spotted and killed. Even though I had them "Hold Ground" and "Don't fire" they always are seen. Why do they always go from prone to on a knee and then prone every few seconds? Sit the F*U*C*K still! No wonder they are seen.

I am "kind of" enjoying the demo but the lack of anything to hide in or around is really going to hurt this game in the long run. It just feels way to open for any infantry.

For me this problem is a total game-breaker. Unhideable ATGs in plain open view of every Panzer at 400m are totally unrealistic as well as useless. Same for infantry, the trenches don't seem to protect much !

Overall with the training scens setup it's much easier to take a fortified position than to defend it...

On paper the matchup looks balanced, with the attacker lacking infantry but having 4 tanks, the success depending on the ATG/ATR vs tanks duels. But the game seems to pretty badly simulate the defender's edge, and the AT thingies get killed in a matter of seconds !

The same matchup on CM should have a pretty different result ... </font>