zjkda1780 Posted December 10, 2006 Share Posted December 10, 2006 All based on PzIV,the Jagdpanther IV is small than PzkwIV F2,Why?Revises it,pleas! Pz IV = Tiger? [ December 14, 2006, 02:19 AM: Message edited by: zjkda1780 ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reichenberg Posted December 10, 2006 Share Posted December 10, 2006 Good point with the size comparison. It is clearly a Panzerjäger IV, just a bit too small.... Looking at the Panzerjäger IV in that picture (and I am nut sure if it is my eyesight or if the picture is too blurry): Is that a muzzle brake on the L70?? So far I have only seen pictures of the PzIV/70 without a muzzle brake..... Uwe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoMac Posted December 10, 2006 Share Posted December 10, 2006 To me it looks like the 75 L48 rather then the L70. You are correct in one point that the L70 does not come with a muzzle brake. [ December 10, 2006, 04:15 AM: Message edited by: JoMc67 ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reichenberg Posted December 10, 2006 Share Posted December 10, 2006 It is pretty short for the L70. And I stand corrected. Here is a picture of the Panzerjäger IV with muzzle brake..... and what looks like the L48 to me. I always thought that the Stug IVs had the L48 and the 2 variants of the Panzerjäger IV came only with the L70 without muzzle brake. Uwe edited for typos [ December 10, 2006, 08:05 AM: Message edited by: Reichenberg ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmar Bijlsma Posted December 10, 2006 Share Posted December 10, 2006 The Panzerjäger IV was front heavy so I would guess they may have dropped the muzzle break to save weight. This one with a MB may have been an early production run? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted December 11, 2006 Share Posted December 11, 2006 Originally posted by Reichenberg: It is pretty short for the L70. And I stand corrected. Here is a picture of the Panzerjäger IV with muzzle brake..... and what looks like the L48 to me. I always thought that the Stug IVs had the L48 and the 2 variants of the Panzerjäger IV came only with the L70 without muzzle brake. The Jagdpanzer IV was actually only available with the L/48 gun. Both variants with the L/70 gun were called "Panzer IV/70". The muzzle brake that you find on the Panther wasn't used because it made the barrel even longer (big problem when crossing trenches) and on the Panther it had to protect the turret ring. On the Panzer IV/70 it doesn't matter much if the gun jerks back a little more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sivodsi Posted December 11, 2006 Share Posted December 11, 2006 Maybe it shrunk in the wash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted December 11, 2006 Share Posted December 11, 2006 So how big's the Tiger? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reichenberg Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 Originally posted by Redwolf: The Jagdpanzer IV was actually only available with the L/48 gun. Both variants with the L/70 gun were called "Panzer IV/70".I came along this information now too. It is mentioned in quite a few sources, but none explains why the name "Jagdpanzer IV" was actually dropped for the L70 version. In other instances the Germans were satisfied with just changing from e.g. L48 to L70 with a new name-attachement to it. Why not in this case?? Redwolf, do you have any information on the name change and why it took place? Uwe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 Originally posted by Reichenberg: They had something crazy going on about the Jagdpanzerwaffe "upgrading" themselves because of the increased importance of vehicles like this one at that stage in the war, not wanting to be second class to the Panzers anymore. I am sure Spielberger will have the explanation, but I don't know whether I kept my leichte Jagdpanzer book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlight Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 The Following info is from : http://www.wwiivehicles.com/germany/tank_hunters/jagdpanzer_iv.html A rather good site for lots of data on all major nations and their vehicles and heavy guns Excert re Jagdpanzer IV (PS sorry for the long post but do check out the site... contains dimensions, weights, etc for all vehicles) ------------------------------------------- Specifications originated in 1942 calling for a heavy assault gun with 100 mm armor.5 Guderian was against the project as it took away from the PzKpfw IV tanks. A wooden model, made by Vomag Betriebs of Plauen/Vogtland, was shown to Hitler on May 14, 1943 and a soft steel model was presented to Hitler in September 19435/ October 1943. The final prototype was made in December 1943. In June 1944 Hitler ordered production of the PzKpfw IV should be abandoned to concentrate on the Jagdpanzer IV.5 They replaced the Marder IIs and Marder IIIs in the panzer division's tank destroyer battalions.5 In The West Partially equipped 6 mechanized divisions on June 6, 1944, in the West.5 Only 60 fought in Normandy.5 At The End As of April 1, 1945, there were 275 still in use with the German Army.5 Sturmgeschütz neuer Art mit 7.5 cm PaK L/48 auf Fahrgestell Panzerkampfwagen IV (SdKfz 162): Used FuG Spr f radio.2 Jagdpanzer IV: Due to delays in getting the L/70 gun fitted, Vomag was asked to start production with the 7.5 cm KwK 40 L/48 gun.5 Entered production in January 1944.5 The armor was supplied by Witkowiter Bergbau un Eisenhütten. The gun was made by Rheinmetall-Borsig and Seitz of Kreuznach. Early vehicles had muzzle brake, but as the gun was only 1.4 m (4' 7") above the ground a lot of dust was kicked up when fired, they were later deleted.5 Had Schürzen and Zimmerit anti-magnetic mine paste installed at the factory.5 The 75 mm gun was offset 200 mm (8") to the right of center.5 Were issued to tank hunter detachments of Panzer divisions from March 1944. They were first used by the Hermann Göring Division in Italy, then with the 4th and 5th Panzer Divisions in Russia, and then with the Panzerlehr, 9th Panzer, and 12th SS Panzer Divisions in France. Jagdpanzer IV/70(V) Panzerjäger IV für 7.5 cm StuK 42 L/70 (SdKfz 162/1) : Built by Vomag. A prototype with the longer L/70 gun was introduced in May 1944. The gun was made by Gustloff of Weimar and Skoda. Entered service in August 1944. Sometimes nicknamed "Guderian's Chicken." The longer gun made the tank nose heavy so the front wheels had to be made steel as it was wearing out the rubber quickly. Late models were to have a Vorsatz P mount for use with the MP44 with a curved barrel attachment. The front 3/4 of the vehicle was the crew compartment and the rear section contained the engine.5 The was mounted 200 mm (8") to the right of center, and had no muzzle brake.5 The gun overhung the front by 2.58 m (8' 6"), and made the vehicle nose heavy.5 The buffer and recuperator mechanisms had to be located above the barrel so that it would fit.5 Some vehicles constructed in early 1945 were built on the Panzer III/IV chassis and had 3 return rollers.5 Used FuG Spr f radio.2 The 105th and 106th Independent Panzer Brigades were issued them in August 19445. 137 were used in the Ardennes offensive in December 1944. Jagdpanzer IV/70(A) Panzer IV/70 Zwischenlösung: Built by Alkett. Mounted the 7.5cm StuK 42 L/70.5 Built on the PzKpfw IV Ausf J chassis.5 The difference was that at the rear there was a vertical section in the superstructure instead of being sloped.5 It was nose heavy and had the first 4 sets of bogies fitted with steel rimmed wheels. Used FuG5 radio.2 Most were used on eastern front as replacements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 Unfortunately the original picture's not linking for me so I can't see what you're all comparing. I recall CMBB had a bit of proportion problems with their T34s. Theoretically everything on a T34 chassis should be the same size, no? But the early M40 was much smaller than the late M43, etc. etc. To their credit BFC was MUCH more careful when they did the models for CMAK. But a craftsman is only as good as his tools. A polygon builder can match a well known set of scale plans perfectly, only to discover that something's obviously wrong after its been placed in the virtual world beside other vehicles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reichenberg Posted December 13, 2006 Share Posted December 13, 2006 Originally posted by Redwolf: I am sure Spielberger will have the explanation, but I don't know whether I kept my leichte Jagdpanzer book. What Starlight has posted is more or less equal to Spielbergers comments in the "PzIV and its variants" book about the Jagdpanzer IV. Maybe the leichte Jagdpanzer has more info - I only have the PzIV book. The "upgrade" issue sounds like a decent explanation - especially for that time. I'll keep looking for any further explanation. Uwe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted December 14, 2006 Share Posted December 14, 2006 Hey Reichenberg, did you buy my Pv IV Spielberger on ebay last April? Would be quite the coincidence I hope I kept my leichte Jagdpanzer... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reichenberg Posted December 15, 2006 Share Posted December 15, 2006 Redwolf, I bought mine years ago. But how can you dare selling a book of Spielberger You must have a second one, right?? If you want to sell your leichte Jagdpanzer too, let me know. On the other hand, if he doesn't explain why the name change took place...... Maybe I should invest in another book too. I was always totally frustrated by the binding of the Motorbuch Verlag books. After some reading you just had a bunch of loose pages in between the covers - annoying!! Now I bought the new version of the Spielberger Stug-book from Motorbuch. The binding seems to be waaaay better than the old ones. Uwe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted December 15, 2006 Share Posted December 15, 2006 Originally posted by Reichenberg: Redwolf, I bought mine years ago. But how can you dare selling a book of Spielberger You must have a second one, right?? If you want to sell your leichte Jagdpanzer too, let me know. Nah, I had more than I could ever read, so I sold those that brought much more money on ebay than they were new. But the time I come around to read about Pz IV details again they are probably be back in print The fact that I didn't notice the lousy binding is a strong indication that I don't read them nearly enough to have that much cash in my bookshelf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Bull Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 I don't know how zjkda1780 got those comparision screenshots but it obviously shows some very inconsistent scaling of the 3D models. I am extremely curious to know how a significant error in the scaling of these vehicles found it's way into the game. Is there some quality control problem with the 3D model creations/submissions? Bull Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomm Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 Originally posted by Lt Bull: I don't know how zjkda1780 got those comparision screenshots ...They must be from Close Combat 8! Best regards, Thomm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reichenberg Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 Maybe from the Russian version Uwe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tools4fools Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 Looking at the Panzerjäger IV in that picture (and I am nut sure if it is my eyesight or if the picture is too blurry): Is that a muzzle brake on the L70?? So far I have only seen pictures of the PzIV/70 without a muzzle brake... If you guys see the same pic I see in the first post then: -where is the PzIV/70? - I see an Elephant to the left, correctly with a muzzle brake. - right is a TigerI - Center is a PZIV with the L48 (I guess) and skirts. Not sure if the F2 hat skirts, didn't the come with the G? - One thing that is sure the PzIV is too big compared to Elephant and Tiger. Or those two to small... Marcus **** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tools4fools Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 Ahh, now there are more images, gosh they load slow... JpzIV is teh one with L48. clearly that PZIV too big, should shrink. **** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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