How Rude!

[Sigrun]

Originally posted by balder:

@ Sigrun

You do not take the 'Waffen-SS' as what they were. They were subjects of a deadly ideology and they were used up for the interests of an imperialist state AND they were mostly fkn proud of it. You see them as knightly warriors and totally independent to the whole situation.

Oh boy, one really gets some crackers here!

Great Britain and it's imperialist empire, abuse of native populations by troops "used for the interests of an imperialist state". The torture, rape and murder of countless hundreds of thousands, if not millions. The concentration camps of the Boer war (yes, it may suprise you to know the british invented the concentration camp). Oh how long do we have to go over this...shall we get into the united states war of genocide against the native indians? Hmm? Shall we?

Man is a beast, and nowhere is that more proved true than when he is at war with himself. Yet to hear the self-righteous cant being spouted here about the Waffen-SS, you'd think they were unique in other ways than their un-matched prowess in combat.

The soviets under stalin murdered about four times as many humans as the nazis did under hitler, but that didn't stop Roosevelt and Churchill from supping with him, did it. Oh the rank hypocrisy of you blinkered revisionist dupes.

[Balder]

That's what I want to read. You negate the historical singularity of the German mania in the nationalsocialist state. It was a new (!) quality of imperialism which has its reasons in the special way German went in the history of constitution of modern capitalism.

Instead you count up what other states did; which is no argument. Thus you are unable to analyze history beyond ideological and wrong consciousness.

[ October 11, 2006, 12:59 PM: Message edited by: balder ]

[VicKevlar]

Originally posted by Sigrun:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by balder:

@ Sigrun

You do not take the 'Waffen-SS' as what they were. They were subjects of a deadly ideology and they were used up for the interests of an imperialist state AND they were mostly fkn proud of it. You see them as knightly warriors and totally independent to the whole situation.

Oh boy, one really gets some crackers here!

Great Britain and it's imperialist empire, abuse of native populations by troops "used for the interests of an imperialist state". The torture, rape and murder of countless hundreds of thousands, if not millions. The concentration camps of the Boer war (yes, it may suprise you to know the british invented the concentration camp). Oh how long do we have to go over this...shall we get into the united states war of genocide against the native indians? Hmm? Shall we?

Man is a beast, and nowhere is that more proved true than when he is at war with himself. Yet to hear the self-righteous cant being spouted here about the Waffen-SS, you'd think they were unique in other ways than their un-matched prowess in combat.

The soviets under stalin murdered about four times as many humans as the nazis did under hitler, but that didn't stop Roosevelt and Churchill from supping with him, did it. Oh the rank hypocrisy of you blinkered revisionist dupes. </font>

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Sigrun:

Yet to hear the self-righteous cant being spouted here about the Waffen-SS, you'd think they were unique in other ways than their un-matched prowess in combat.

We've asked you several times to name a single battle the Waffen SS managed to win against the Western democracies after 1940 (though I understand the Wormhoudt massacre was precipitated by the frustration of an over eager SS commander who drove his inexperienced troops into a British ambush?)...and yet you fail to have produced one. We've given you Arnhem, in which a corps with heavy tanks took 10 days to defeat a single unsupplied airborne division.

Where was this prowess of which you speak at D-Day, Buron, Authie, Ambleve, et al? We're not seeing it.

[Panzerjäger653]

I think the full effect of the Waffen-SS and elite units such as as Grossduetschland on modern warfare can be judged by the simple fact that NATOs tactic during the Cold War were based on the tactics used against the Russians by the Germans. Many of the officers were extensively debriefed by the allies and some of the best publications on the Germans were produced by the American/British goverment post war. Did the Germans not invent the Kampfgruppen - a cornerstone of modern warfare ? All post-war British tanks are based on the concept of the Tiger. I do not say this to glorify the Nazis (all my grandparents fought against them and the Japs).

As for the Aussie thing - one only has to read about the Vietnam war to know the VC were too scared to enter their area of operations ! In fact I believe they issued an order to that effect.

[Battlefront.com]

Sigrun,

The only irony Steve is your distorted thinking calling my thinking distorted.

The insane always think everybody else is crazy.

"Millions took part" indeed; what complete and utter rubbish. But hugely funny

So 20,000,000 civilians apparently jumped in front of bullets, lept into gas chambers, starved themselves, beat themselves to death, and otherwise met a brutal and premature end to their lives without the aid of more than handful of derranged Germans and their minions? What a wonderful theory. Now back that up.

The truth of the matter is laid out quite clearly. Everybody else discusses facts, you hurtle insults and challenge nothing but our patience. For starters, how about answering the charge that the OKW ordered that "no prisoners be taken" and therefore 5,170 unarmed Italian Army soldiers were executed on the Greek island of Kefalonia:

http://www.ushmm.org/research/center/publications/occasional/2002-03/paper.pdf

You apparently don't like to talk specifics (too tough to dodge facts), so I expect you will not reply to this point but instead throw more insults back at me. Thus once again proving who you are.

That makes perfect sense since you are a neo-Nazi, neo-Fascist, Nazi apologist, or untral nationalist. You take your pick which one we should call you, but you are what you are. I've seen Hollocaust denniers that have done a better job and disguising their true motivations than you.

Your time here is limited. Since nobody is buying into your distorted ideology, trying to push it onto the rest of the Forum is pointless. If you persist then you will cross over the line and become classified as a Troll. If you do that, you will be banned. If you don't like it, go to a neo-Nazi website of your choice and you won't have to push your concepts of the world at all... they will find a readily receptive audience.

Steve

[Bewildered]

I am definitely NOT a great historian of WW2. However, in Max Hasting's recent book, Armageddon, which tends to the view that the German fighting machine was highly professional (as a fighting machine) and that the Western Allies could not match that level of competence (unit for unit), he points out some other rather unsavoury truths. He doesn't pull his punches. My understanding is that it is a commonly held view that the German fierce defence of the eastern homeland, that allowed many ethnic Germans to flea west, was a phenomenal and almost noble sacrifice. However he points out that for every hour that the Germans were keeping the Russians at bay, the endless, ceaseless extermination of Jews and other "inferior" ethnic groups continued at a frantic pace. The "heroic defence" was at the costs of thousands upon thousands of Jews, who would have been saved if Germany had either given in to the inevitable earlier OR stopped slaughtering Jews and Gypsies in their disgusting butcher factories, even at that last stage, when they knew the war was lost. There is no honour in that "brave defence" when all it did was prolong the genocide.

Well, that's my 5 cent's worth.

I know I am no expert, but I don't buy any argument about any nobility in the Waffen SS, or the suggestion that everybody else somehow didn't know what was going on. They were either ignoring it or abetting it. This is NOT a criticism of modern Germany (though perhaps of some of its myths). It's a completely separate issue.

As for Beevor's seeming obsession with the rape issue, all I know is that there is some debate about its extent and causes. The Russians had every reason to hate the Germans, and as is always the case, it is the women who suffer most.

That's all I have to say. I cannot quote chapter and verse. I would, though, recommend Hasting's book. It covers the last year of the war against germany, on both fronts. He's pretty even-handed, and doesn't shy away from atrocities committed by the Western Allies in western europe.

Cheers,

Martin

[Battlefront.com]

Balder,

Instead you count up what other states did; which is no argument.

Sure it is... its the last defense of the weak. "It's OK for me to do it because someone else did it too". The funny thing is he proves everybody' else's point. Yup, British Imperialism is morally indefensible... Germany's behavior was similar... therefore it is similarly indefensible. I'm sure that isn't what Sigun meant, but the logic is quite plain.

VicKevlar,

When did IGotMilk come back here?

Shudder... what a loon. I'll give Sigrun credit... he isn't insane, he's just a neo-Nazi. One can be a racist, ultra national without being insane. Though clearly having a few screws loose helps.

Panzerjäger653,

I think the full effect of the Waffen-SS and elite units such as as Grossduetschland on modern warfare can be judged by the simple fact that NATOs tactic during the Cold War were based on the tactics used against the Russians by the Germans.

Incorrect. There is no such thing as "elite tactics", rather they are regular tactics executed with the best equipment and (in theory) most hand picked soldiers. The tactics are still the tactics. The Western Allies had based much of their WWII tactics on German examples, just as much of the German WWII tactics were based on pre-war theorists. These theorists included Germans, French, British, and even Americans. The German WWII tactics were adaptations of these theories as applied in actual warfare. They agumented their tactics with those of the Soviets and Partisans.

In short, the Western Allies were more interested in how this combined knowledge of the Western model of warfare worked against the Soviet model of warfare. This has nothing to do with elite units in the least. In fact, most of the officers I've seen listed in US Army studies were from "regular" Infantry and Panzer divisions, not the "elite" ones.

Steve

[Balder]

The Western Allies were running after everything to have a better position in their front against the soviets after WW2. Thus the T-34-curves were essential for the tank-development after WW2. On the other hand they took the nazi-agents from "Reinhardt Gehlen" and his "Fremde Heere Ost" into their service - because their knowledge of russian military was so important. Thus the old nazis played an important role in the new, democratic, Germany. Even the "Bundeswehr" was built up with the help of ex-Wehrmacht comrades.

[Mace]

Originally posted by Sigrun:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mace:

Have you got examples of Waffen SS facing off the elite Allied Divisions and 'doing better' or are you merely speculating?

There aren't any particularly good examples. There were the UK paras and US airborne, but by then the Waffen-SS wasn't what it used to be, and was woefully under-equipped and under-supplied.</font>

[Panzerjäger653]

Panzerjäger653,

I think the full effect of the Waffen-SS and elite units such as as Grossduetschland on modern warfare can be judged by the simple fact that NATOs tactic during the Cold War were based on the tactics used against the Russians by the Germans.

Incorrect. There is no such thing as "elite tactics", rather they are regular tactics executed with the best equipment and (in theory) most hand picked soldiers. The tactics are still the tactics. The Western Allies had based much of their WWII tactics on German examples, just as much of the German WWII tactics were based on pre-war theorists. These theorists included Germans, French, British, and even Americans. The German WWII tactics were adaptations of these theories as applied in actual warfare. They agumented their tactics with those of the Soviets and Partisans.

In short, the Western Allies were more interested in how this combined knowledge of the Western model of warfare worked against the Soviet model of warfare. This has nothing to do with elite units in the least. In fact, most of the officers I've seen listed in US Army studies were from "regular" Infantry and Panzer divisions, not the "elite" ones.

Steve

[Sigrun]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Sigrun,

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The only irony Steve is your distorted thinking calling my thinking distorted.

The insane always think everybody else is crazy.

"Millions took part" indeed; what complete and utter rubbish. But hugely funny

So 20,000,000 civilians apparently jumped in front of bullets, lept into gas chambers, starved themselves, beat themselves to death, and otherwise met a brutal and premature end to their lives without the aid of more than handful of derranged Germans and their minions? What a wonderful theory. Now back that up.

The truth of the matter is laid out quite clearly. Everybody else discusses facts, you hurtle insults and challenge nothing but our patience. For starters, how about answering the charge that the OKW ordered that "no prisoners be taken" and therefore 5,170 unarmed Italian Army soldiers were executed on the Greek island of Kefalonia:

http://www.ushmm.org/research/center/publications/occasional/2002-03/paper.pdf

You apparently don't like to talk specifics (too tough to dodge facts), so I expect you will not reply to this point but instead throw more insults back at me. Thus once again proving who you are.

That makes perfect sense since you are a neo-Nazi, neo-Fascist, Nazi apologist, or untral nationalist. You take your pick which one we should call you, but you are what you are. I've seen Hollocaust denniers that have done a better job and disguising their true motivations than you.

Your time here is limited. Since nobody is buying into your distorted ideology, trying to push it onto the rest of the Forum is pointless. If you persist then you will cross over the line and become classified as a Troll. If you do that, you will be banned. If you don't like it, go to a neo-Nazi website of your choice and you won't have to push your concepts of the world at all... they will find a readily receptive audience.

Steve </font>

[PseudoSimonds]

Still can't find the facts to back up your claims, eh?

[Panzerjäger653]

Originally posted by Sigrun:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Sigrun,

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The only irony Steve is your distorted thinking calling my thinking distorted.

The insane always think everybody else is crazy.

"Millions took part" indeed; what complete and utter rubbish. But hugely funny

So 20,000,000 civilians apparently jumped in front of bullets, lept into gas chambers, starved themselves, beat themselves to death, and otherwise met a brutal and premature end to their lives without the aid of more than handful of derranged Germans and their minions? What a wonderful theory. Now back that up.

The truth of the matter is laid out quite clearly. Everybody else discusses facts, you hurtle insults and challenge nothing but our patience. For starters, how about answering the charge that the OKW ordered that "no prisoners be taken" and therefore 5,170 unarmed Italian Army soldiers were executed on the Greek island of Kefalonia:

http://www.ushmm.org/research/center/publications/occasional/2002-03/paper.pdf

You apparently don't like to talk specifics (too tough to dodge facts), so I expect you will not reply to this point but instead throw more insults back at me. Thus once again proving who you are.

That makes perfect sense since you are a neo-Nazi, neo-Fascist, Nazi apologist, or untral nationalist. You take your pick which one we should call you, but you are what you are. I've seen Hollocaust denniers that have done a better job and disguising their true motivations than you.

Your time here is limited. Since nobody is buying into your distorted ideology, trying to push it onto the rest of the Forum is pointless. If you persist then you will cross over the line and become classified as a Troll. If you do that, you will be banned. If you don't like it, go to a neo-Nazi website of your choice and you won't have to push your concepts of the world at all... they will find a readily receptive audience.

Steve </font>

[Sigrun]

Originally posted by PseudoSimonds:

Still can't find the facts to back up your claims, eh?

Do you really think I can be arsed to root out stuff the entire world has already seen countless times, in books and on internet sites?! Do you really expect to have anyone with an intellect larger than an orange believe that my contention is defeated because I don't cut & paste the aforementioned data into this forum? Is anyone actually that asinine?!

Please, spare me that absurdity. We have Steve claiming that millions were involved in the slaughter of the jews, when even the victors, in all their hasty enthusiasm, could muster but twenty accused for the Nuremburg show-trial.

Millions indeed. You'd have thought, in that case, that they might have tried at least a few thousand then. Eh Steve?

Oh, sorry, that's a valid and salient point...you better ban me, eh?

[Balder]

[...] without honour

ROFL. People like you should not be discoursively disenchanted, but ignored.

[Sigrun]

Originally posted by Panzerjäger653:

Does it always have degenerate into this ?

Apparently it does, when one side of the debate cannot refrain from trash-talking insults and abuse, finally encouraged and joined by an admin in a disgraceful display of partisanship.

[PseudoSimonds]

Originally posted by Sigrun:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by PseudoSimonds:

Still can't find the facts to back up your claims, eh?

Do you really think I can be arsed to root out stuff the entire world has already seen countless times, in books and on internet sites?! Do you really expect to have anyone with an intellect larger than an orange believe that my contention is defeated because I don't cut & paste the aforementioned data into this forum? Is anyone actually that asinine?!

Please, spare me that absurdity. We have Steve claiming that millions were involved in the slaughter of the jews, when even the victors, in all their hasty enthusiasm, could muster but twenty accused for the Nuremburg show-trial.

Millions indeed. You'd have thought, in that case, that they might have tried at least a few thousand then. Eh Steve?

Oh, sorry, that's a valid and salient point...you better ban me, eh? </font>

[Panzerjäger653]

Release the demo or game quick ! People are getting vicious !

[Earl Grey]

Funny thing nobody proposed it earlier to ignore him. Now he has got the attention of a lot of people here and might discredit the niveau I always thought this forum had. Pity, that...

[Panzerjäger653]

Are all forums like this ?

[Sigrun]

Originally posted by PseudoSimonds:

Quit stalling.

There's zero stalling involved. Anybody who knows the military history of WW2, who has studied it in depth for thirty years, objectively, knows the Waffen-SS kicked serious butt all the way through the war from 1939 to 1945. That is an undeniable and irrefutable fact.

But to say so means one is a nazi, apparently. How lame. How dishonest. How dispicably barren of even a shred of intellectual credibility.

[PseudoSimonds]

Originally posted by Panzerjäger653:

Are all forums like this ?

Just the good ones.

[PseudoSimonds]

Originally posted by Sigrun:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by PseudoSimonds:

Quit stalling.

There's zero stalling involved. Anybody who knows the military history of WW2, who has studied it in depth for thirty years, objectively, knows the Waffen-SS kicked serious butt all the way through the war from 1939 to 1945. That is an undeniable and irrefutable fact.

But to say so means one is a nazi, apparently. How lame. How dishonest. How dispicably barren of even a shred of intellectual credibility. </font>

[Sigrun]

Originally posted by PseudoSimonds:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sigrun:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by PseudoSimonds:

Quit stalling.

There's zero stalling involved. Anybody who knows the military history of WW2, who has studied it in depth for thirty years, objectively, knows the Waffen-SS kicked serious butt all the way through the war from 1939 to 1945. That is an undeniable and irrefutable fact.

But to say so means one is a nazi, apparently. How lame. How dishonest. How dispicably barren of even a shred of intellectual credibility. </font>