a module french army ?

[KNac]

This is turning into a political thread (educated at least) which is way offtopic. But couldn't agree more with Joch.

Not following USA foreing policies is not anti-americanism. Contrary to what some may think, politics don't take foreing policies decissions based on missleading "intelectuals" and some part of the media, but rather on country's own interested or in their own agenda. That a part of the population demostrate this feelings is not the casus belli of their actions but a coincidence.

And this happens everywhere, be it USA or France. Only that some manage to undercover it better than others (Chiraq better than Bush based on past expriences haha).

[Pascal DI FOLCO]

Another question is to assess the success of these various policies, according to their goals.

In this aspect, the success of French policy can be discussed, but the failure of the US become more and more difficult to question anymore (apart from some old donkeys neverending same braying)...

[Barleyman]

Originally posted by KNac:

This is turning into a political thread (educated at least) which is way offtopic. But couldn't agree more with Joch.

Never despair, I'm sure it'll evolve into name calling and personal attacks in no time

[Bradley Dick]

I'd like to see a module of the opening parts of WWII. A "Phony War" campaign. You could simulate French forces sitting around and doing nothing.

[Feltan]

Originally posted by Pascal DI FOLCO:

Another question is to assess the success of these various policies, according to their goals.

In this aspect, the success of French policy can be discussed, but the failure of the US become more and more difficult to question anymore (apart from some old donkeys neverending same braying)...

The relative success or failure of policies is going to be answered by historians, not us. However, long term, I am not so sure you can characterize the "success of French policy," or "failure of the US."

What is the world going to look like in ten or twenty years? If the Iraqi government becomes solvent, and a (relatively) free and democratic country is born in the Muslim Middle East - won't critisism of U.S. policy today sound petty and shortsighted? If Muslim youths in Paris continue to riot and demand the adoption of Sharia law, will French policy seem so enlightened?

You know, in the context of WWII, England and France are routinely taken to task for not confronting Hitler sooner. Why didn't France attack Germany when the Rhineland was reoccupied? Well, the "safe" choice for the allies was not to act. Appeasement of evil was preferable to risk taking decisive action. Viewed from the 1935-1939 timeframe it may have made sense -- it was the safe play for politicians. The fact that it didn't work out well for France and England is clear now; however, imagine the outcry if Fance and England had moved against Hitler when Germany was still weak.

What would have happened if Sadaam was still vertical and running Iraq? I suppose we'll never know for sure, but the prospect of a stable and peaceful Middle East seems too much of an assumption. And, the amount and type of flak that Bush and the U.S. is catching now is probably why France and England decided to pass on confronting Hitler in the late 1930's when they could; it is the same reason former President Clinton tried to sweep terror under the rug and only take minimal action during his tenure. For politicians, it sucks being the target of critisicm from those on the sideline.

I hope I am not coming across as an "old donkey braying." The final account of today's policies probably won't be apparent for a generation. And, I am not convinced that today's conventional wisdom about the status of things is entirely correct.

Regards,

Feltan

[SgtMuhammed]

I guess I'll join you in the stables. Well said.

[Sequoia]

Yes France and Britain should have stood up to Germany earlier in both World Wars like the U.S. did!

[MD82]

Originally posted by Sequoia:

Yes France and Britain should have stood up to Germany earlier in both World Wars like the U.S. did!

Or imposed even more draconian terms than the Versailles Treaty and then failed to enforce them. We really missed the boat with that one.

[MD82]

Originally posted by FAI:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MD82:

That's why Chirac said (paraphrased) "My foreign policy is simple. I just look at what the Americans are doing and do the opposite. I'm bound to be right."

If France and Russia had firmly supported the UN sanctions and backed the ultimatum to Saddam perhaps the invasion of Iraq never would have taken place. It would not have angered most arab countries to have seen Saddam displaced.

France's appeasement of the Arabs won't work forever. Wait until the muslims reach a majority in France. It won't be long. They are getting closer in Belgium and the Netherlands.

Same old dead horse. Bush/neocons/et al didn't want sanctions or embargo. Nothing short of full pledged invasion would be satisfactory, all others be damned. Which they got in the end. France rightfully retained the right to say "I told you so". </font>

[Berlichtingen]

Originally posted by MD82:

The problem is France was more interested in being able to say "I told you so" than in seeing the US and UK succeed.

How is helping the US and UK succeed in France's interest? The war in Iraq wasn't even in the US or UK's interest

[Sgt Joch]

it's more complicated than that. I would say it is the difference between the world weary & cynical ("Old School"! )diplomacy practiced by France and many other countries and the bright eyed and bushy-tailed ("New School") diplomacy practiced by the Bush administration.

If the U.S. had proposed an Old School type plan, for example assassinate Hussein or depose him in a coup d'état and have him replaced by another Sunni general more palatable to the U.S., I am certain France would have had no objection.

However, if you look at the New School plan that was actually trotted out in 2002:

1. invade and take over Iraq;

2. turn Iraq into a western style democracy; and

3. give U.S. companies the lion share of any reconstruction contracts since the U.S. will be supplying most of the troops.

It becomes a high risk/low gain plan for France since there is a high probability of failure on #2 and little potential upside on #3.

The U.S. may still be able to pull it off, but right now I would say the score in the Iraq match is: U.S. 0, Iran 1.

(Iran also practices Old School diplomacy).

[SgtMuhammed]

And all this matters how as to whether or not to have a French module?

[Sgt Joch]

Originally posted by sgtgoody (esq):

And all this matters how as to whether or not to have a French module?

totally off topic of course, but we have not had a good Iraq debate in what? two weeks?

[ironpants]

Anyway, there can't be a french module as part of the backstory states that one of the dirty bombs destroyed France's principal white flag factory, thus crippling Frances' military entirely.

Only kidding, would love a french module, or possibly just the Legion with some additional units in support. The only thing that bothers me is that we add all these nations France, UK, Germany, Netherlands, Canada or wherever.... Doesn't look good for Syria does it!...Who is going to be helping them out?

I vote... USSR becomes embroiled,then we'd need the French and everybody else would end up in there too Red Storm Rising 2009 anyone? Obviously ain't gonna happen because they'd have to produce new map textures to model central europe and possibly even scandanavia... in which case we could have the Finns in too!

Incedentally, I wish the UK would take a leaf out of Frances foreign policy book and just leave the yanks to it, like they did with us and the Falklands... And like when the US forced the UK to pay the punitive lend lease loans back(last payment made 2002!) When the US had been catapulted to superpower status because the UK stood up to tyranny ALONE after the fall of the brave French, afterwards we Brits asked for nothing for it, the yanks made sure we got it. The Russians may have won the war with American help but we softened em up for you.

There are many positives and many negatives about each country (Yes even the British!)as there are with individuals, I don't think we are going to solve that here.... so who wants a french module then?

[ironpants]

Sorry, Britain did not stand alone, that is innaccurate.. musn't leave out the Australians, New Zealanders, south africans, all free forces etc.. etc.. Hey can we have a ghurka module?

[Dingchavez]

Ghurka of course ! they're like the "British almost foreign legion"

Plus, they're nice guys

I'd like to mention that I've been betrayed by French army : they didn't gave me my white flag :-/

(nice joke by the way...).