Tidbit about Fog of War

[SlowMotion]

BF:

"And you guys can brainstorm all you want... but I have already said, from the beginning, that this is a feature thta will NOT be significantly expanded."

Ok, I understood that original comment so that this feature wouldn't be modified much BEFORE we'll see how well it works in the first released games. But that there might be changes afterwards.

No demands of course, just that this tip of the iceBERG suddenly appearing after long sailing with only small pieces of ice sometimes floating in the sea, easily "overrevs" the brain .

I agree 100% with the requirement that the system must be easy to use. Most people probably see the learning curve of existing CM games too much already. Still I hope there can be ways of doing some not-so-simple things in the scenario editor, if the results are easy to use and understand for people who play a scenario. After so many hints about new additions, it will be very interesting to see how the new scenario editor works.

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

This pic is entitled "Steve Responding to Whiners".

Michael

it had to be done

"Steve Responding to Whiners":

[SlowMotion]

LOL!

If that picture is a slight hint to end this thread, ok. But before doing that, here's one more post. Don't raise that sledgehammer yet before reading the whole thing

If someone thinks that this thread has deteriorated into whining about minisculous details that nobody cares about and user posts like mine had a totally wrong attitude, compare this to another similar case: the IL2 series.

The developers of those games have also published several WW2 games based on an engine that was developed further game by game. Now there is a new game engine under development and this week they decided to release new info about what people are about to see in games using this new engine. And how did people react? Take a look, the last time I checked there were 24 pages of replies. Also note what kind of wishes people are listing, does this look familiar?

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/63110913/m/8371080943/p/24

Ducking the hammer, there are more important features even on my CMx2 wish list...

[Battlefront.com]

[cartoon voice] Russians is the craziest peoples! [/cartoon voice]

I wonder if this is part of the Russian Army hazing rituals we hear so much about In any case, I KNOW that guy with the block on his head isn't getting paid enough to have that happen to him!

Steve

[Pvt. Ryan]

I thought it was a pizza and the other guy doesn't like anchovies.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Nice mentality too. "Oh, I'm going to hit someone on the head with a sledgehammer, better bandage my hand before I get hurt!"

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Elmar Bijlsma:

Nice mentality too. "Oh, I'm going to hit someone on the head with a sledgehammer, better bandage my hand before I get hurt!"

Y'know, I wondered about that too. Suppose the guy tried to break it with a karate chop first and that's why he looks so mad?

Michael

[JonS]

Maybe they're taking turn about, and that's why he looks so angry ...

[aka_tom_w]

still an interesting thread....

[Bigduke6]

That picture is a classic example of a treasured tradition of the modern former Soviet military: "The Special Forces Dog and Pony Show."

It happens at pretty much every military event to which the general public is invited. The regular troopies do their thing, be it parade or maneuvers or receiving their AKs or whatever it is, and then as a piece d' resistance somewhere between 5 and 15 pairs of "special forces" troopers get out in front of the gathered civilians.

The troopers then go through their stuff, which typically is series of faked hand to hand punches, tumbles, and throws. Special forces units able to manage these tricks simultaneously - i.e., ten pairs performing the same judo flip at the exact same time - are accounted particularly combat-ready.

Then the really stupid, ah, serious soldiers complete the shock and awe assault on the general public with a session of smashing construction materials with, or upon their bodies. The soldiers', that is. This most common technique is karate chops on concrete blocks (note sledge-hammer wielder's right paw above). Perhaps the apex of the art is breaking bricks over one's head. Again, group achievments are preferred to individual accomplishment: it is better to have 20 men smash a small brick on their respective skulls, than to have one man break five unreinforced concrete slabs with a single kick.

Cue polite applause. Civilians disperse, impressed with the ferocious combat capacities purchased by their tax rubles (or hyrvnas, or lats, or dinars, or what have you.) Top officers retire to pound vodka at the club, breathing a sigh of relief nothing went awry. And the special forces troopers stomp back to their barracks, to contiue watching soap operas and cleaning floors for the indefinate future, as the entire proceedings absorbed the special force unit's training funds and energy for the last month, and probably the next one as well.

I am not making a word of this up. Everything described here I have seen with my own eyes.

[dalem]

Man, everyone makes fun of the Russian special forces, but think about it - who but them would have thought to bring a flamethrower to the Beslan school hostage crisis?

Udarniki rabotayut ochen xorosho!

-dale

[mrpwase]

Originally posted by JonS:

Oh god Dale - I don't know whether to laugh, drool, or throw up!

Try all three. It'll be funny. >_>

This sounds interesting, although I agree with Jon when he says it might spoil suspense. Having not read the topic too thoroughly, I might be flamed for this, but...it is optional, right?

EDIT: Crap, didn't notice the other three pages.

[Zalgiris 1410]

Originally posted by SlowMotion:

About tactical aerial intelligence height:

I suppose so. They had to fly lower (the example I found from 1944 was at 600m) in order to see more details. I guess higher level flights were used with targets heavily defended with AAA or fighter defenses, such as important harbours.

The previous post mentioning "well documented entrenchments" makes me think about how reliable those documentations really were - in WW2 and even today. Can we buy things like fake tanks to mislead enemy spotting?

Dummy tanks and decoy mok up guns etc; AFAIK from what I've read these kinds of things were employed in more of a well off the CM map range to really be viable for being included in CMx2 IMHO. (I'm not insanely gonna demand them while I froff at the mouth.) :eek:

That said, I'm largely referring to British deception plans in NA aranged under some circus or magician guy, who I think was also involved with creating a totally faked larger second invasion force for Overlord. Large amounts of radio traffic was simulated too, but again I can't imagine this being employed on the CM tactical scale, (in even the currently capable Rgmt v Rgmt sized games) all that frequently.

The other way false intelligence was created was by having real tanks and other vehicles drive about an area in a fronts rear excessively to create the impression (of non existant dummy forces) that will mislead enemy estimates etc. The Russians did this during mid 1944 in Nth Ukraine as part of Maskirovka (Maskirization) before the beginning of Operation Bagration on the 22nd of June 1944. The strategic deception led to the destruction of Armee Group Mitte because of the incorrect assumptions thus held by OKW.

I've also read of dummy battery positions being constructed to retared enemy counter battery fire effects upon the real gun positions. One at lest had explosion produced gun flashes and sound effects! :cool:

AFAIK the only case of really reliable "well documentated entrenchments" actually being obtained by enemy intelligences was the accurate and for in some parts of it complete documentations of the German coatal fortifications. Plans and most importantly the construction details were photograhed by the French resistance, at least by one member of IIRC. Some specifics were later captured during fighting, definately at St Nazaire.

Other than that, for fortifications on the large scale the rest were mostly in friendy home territories with the main exception being that for the Germans on the Italian mainland. Again, though in this theatre I don't think the Allies had all that good info judging by the troubles they experienced fighting there. :confused:

All the same, a lot of recce was of an operational nature and not of the tactical type relevent to CMx2, but plenty enough were of course devoted to these kinds of tasks for sure. I just hope the pecentages mix and the actual feel of it is reasonably right, hopefully enough in term of the realism for the WWII setting.

On the small scale as in the CM scope of things (& esp in that of CMx2) the way some BFC is gonna make it sounds resonable enought to me. There are plenty of recorded instances of partisans or civilians providing intell and answers to such querries as 'where's that gun or tank at?' etc. Spies where used at times tactically, though I doubt terribly all that very often Steve, since this was performed by such means as enemy inpersonating and speaking troops such as say the Brandembergers and also by farm children who the Russians trained and used and even gave awards to!

[ September 11, 2005, 05:10 PM: Message edited by: Zalgiris 1410 ]