WEGO v RT

[rammer4250]

My view:

I believe WEGO is the way to go. You can't get reality out of a game unless of course your're on the deck of the USS Enterprise (Star Trek). As a simulator though I believe WEGO comes closest for the following reasons. When a battalion commander receives his orders and then transmits them downward he basically is issuing his intent and what he wants to use. Same with Company commander; then platoon commander; then squad leader. In this simulator we are playing all. So when we issue our orders and setup our forces we then have a phase of watching that order play out for good or bad. If in reality a battalion commander learned his intent actually is not being carried out he then issues new orders or further directions to the offending lower HQ. This takes time. In that time things could go wrong before his further directions are carried out. WEGO I believe simulates this time lapse well and allows us to micromanage (ie step into the shoes of each lower HQs) to steer the fight in the direction we want it to go. I believe RT gives us too much unreal control. And yet because of the size of certain engagements we lose control because simply put any AI at this day and age are retarded. They can't even carry out the order of move safely without our micomanaging. This is no knock of Battlefront because we are not on the deck of the Enterprise with real intuitive AI. I am curious to hear from others about this topic. Especially those who say that it is more realistic in RT. How can that be? I must be missing something. We really don't have control of the most basic level (the soldier). Even a squad leader in real life doesn't have that control. A FNG (@#$%ing new guy) panics, stands up or flees and gets shot. In real life from what I have read if you can last long enough to gain experience you have a better chance to survive combat. So how is it that just because you have control at every second in RT that it's closer to simulating reality. RT may be close if you are controlling a very small group such as a squad but above that no way.

I prefer a larger engagement then squad level so I can't understand why so many people like RT or say it's more realistic.

On a strategy/tactical level RT is just a game. WEGO gives us a chance to issue orders with the intention of seeing our tactical plans carried out and with the minute out of our complete control Fog of War is simulated.

Just curious and just my opinion.

[shafty]

This realism argument is a bit ridiculous. We are extending coloured lines from our units, zoom/teleporting around the map, pause and replaying the action. Need i go on. It is a game to be enjoyed and if you think that for one minute you are closer to 'the real thing' because the game isn't split into minute chunks then quite frankly you are a delusional moron.

It was a big mistake to drop the TCP/IP WEGO format but unfortunately is has become a bone of contention. If BF include it then they will have to admit that they were wrong. Sadly and clearly they are wrong but they are no-where big enough to admit it, otherwise they would have accepted it along time ago and there would have been plans already publicised to get it in.

Alot are so frustrated because its omission has ruined what could have been a stonking game for them.

Oh well, lets hope another company latches on to the discontent and releases a similar game with what people want.

[ October 12, 2007, 12:29 PM: Message edited by: shafty ]

[MikeyD]

After years of happily playing WeGo its now got VERY painful in comparison the joys of Realtime. Being one of the happy few to have played CMSF for nine months now, returning recently to give CMx1 a spin wasn't just 'quaint' it was excruciating. A one hour scenario should take an hour to play! WeGo is still happily nested in the game... but there's not many scenarios where I feel any particular urge to play in it.

[thewood]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

After years of happily playing WeGo its now got VERY painful in comparison the joys of Realtime. Being one of the happy few to have played CMSF for nine months now, returning recently to give CMx1 a spin wasn't just 'quaint' it was excruciating. A one hour scenario should take an hour to play! WeGo is still happily nested in the game... but there's not many scenarios where I feel any particular urge to play in it.

So you never pause? I play RT in smaller scenarios and have to pause constatntly in Mout scenarios.

[MarkEzra]

The Day that I am able to pause RT and replay the last minute is the day I kick WEGO to the curb. Until then I will have my intimate inspection of carnage by all possible views. It's why we all slow down and gawk at traffic accidents....

[MikeyD]

"So you never pause? "

Surprisingly little pausing - i mean it surprises even ME! I used to be on that ESC button all the time but as my camera movement skills increased my use of the pause button dropped. Now its mostly used for when i want snacks - or if my Javelin's about to impact and i want to see it from a cool angle.

Instead of the 'game' pause button i am using the individual 'unit' pause button more, trying to get my guys moving in a coordinated manner. Sorta like a juggling act instead of a chess game.

[rammer4250]

I have my opinions still and probably won't change them anytime soon but I still havn't had my question answered fully. Why do you who like playing in RT like it?

MikeyD

You came closest to answering my question and I think this is what you are saying. RT is quicker playwise.

I guess in WEGO it's closer to a wargame. Like I mentioned WEGO has a more fog of war feeling for me. For instance: You plan to send a squad to flank a certain building thinking the way is clear. All of a sudden a hidden unit pops up. In RT you can immediately (ie: instantaneously) react. In WEGO most of the fun for me is the surprise and not immediately being able to do anything about it. Now it's excruciating to watch all your plans go down the drain and try and rectify it after the minute is up hoping you have something left. I can imagine the major in his HQ screaming what the f is wrong with that damn captain.

Again just a flavor.

[Pandur]

the biggest thing i like with wego is the situational awareness it gives you, combined with much time to think and refine and play things out in your head. its a slow way for patient people, we(or i like )need much contol over units in order to let them do things for themselfs one minute long. more control than there is currently offered with RT play. i think some features should be included just for WEGO, not RT, as the RTer´s wont have much to do if the units AI is ready for WEGO "one day".

i speak about stuff like "cover arc & hide"! nothing you want to miss in CMx1, but here everyone takes it. that cant be, your ambush capabilities arent present in WEGO currently. if you unhide em they shoot at stuff outside of the arc at will and if you hide em they could be swarmed by nice virgins and they wouldnt do a thing.

in RT on the other hand, you can do something about it as fast as "you" can do. if the other one is faster, he is better in RT therms spoken...thats the downside but also the challenge for some people. i cant say i like it.

everyone his favoured thing i say, RT for the ones, WEGO for the others, but BFC now have 2 stables to take care of wich house quiet different inhabitants.

[rammer4250]

Shafty

I don't think this game stinks. I belive we still have WEGO. I don't really buy into the theory that the AI is dumber because of the RT implementation. The AI is dumb because all AI is dumb to a certain extent. Unitl the creation of the holodeck the only way to get human play is to play another human (of course there still are certain limitations).

And now my real opinion. Hi, my name is Ron, and I'm a Battlefront fanboy. Really, think about it. This game is magnitudes above what came before. And all done by what, one programmer. I own TACOPS, BCT but as far as I'm concerned Shock Force beats them hands down. Of course, the true grogs will like them more I think this game has it all. Well not all but alot. A reasonable AI experience, beautiful graphics for this type of game, a pretty much realistic weapon experience, a chance to use and experiment with real world tactics and no more 3 robot squads. And most of all a company who really believes in its creation and will try and improve it even more. Seriously this thing can only get better over time. I don't blame Battlefront for trying to make money while doing something they love. We benefit from it. I bought the program before all the patches but from it's history I knew (and still know) Battlefront will come through (only if they keep some sought of WEGO). If not Shock Force then the future modules. I find this game incredible. I feel the same about Falcon 4.

Please Battlefront don't ever get rid of WEGO. At least until you design a holodeck.

[ October 12, 2007, 02:01 PM: Message edited by: rammer4250 ]

[rammer4250]

Shafty

I want to apologize for my last comment to you. I know you didn't say it stunk so I don't want to put words in your mouth.

[MarkEzra]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

"So you never pause? "

Surprisingly little pausing - i mean it surprises even ME! I used to be on that ESC button all the time but as my camera movement skills increased my use of the pause button dropped. Now its mostly used for when i want snacks - or if my Javelin's about to impact and i want to see it from a cool angle.

Instead of the 'game' pause button i am using the individual 'unit' pause button more, trying to get my guys moving in a coordinated manner. Sorta like a juggling act instead of a chess game.

It's not the PAUSE Mikey...It's the REPLAY...But to answer your question: When I play RT it's with Tiny/Small units and I rarely pause...With larger units I prefer WEGO and will until RT allows for a pause w/playback

[molotov_billy]

Originally posted by rammer4250:

I have my opinions still and probably won't change them anytime soon but I still havn't had my question answered fully. Why do you who like playing in RT like it?

Aside from replaying, what is WEGO except realtime with arbitrary pauses? Only being allowed to issue orders every minute is unrealistic - a gimick that allows for PBEM, and that's just about it. I don't use PBEM, nor am I interested in replaying action.

Orders-every-minute is especially painful in a modern setting - things happen so fast, you could have an entire platoon wiped out before you can even react. The bugs and quirkness associated with AI and spotting make things even worse - I tend to have to babysit most units.

There are huge expanses of time that need no pause at all, and certain cases where I need to be pausing every other second. The only flexible way to do this is with real-time pause-able.

[helm123]

Originally posted by molotov_billy:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by rammer4250:

I have my opinions still and probably won't change them anytime soon but I still havn't had my question answered fully. Why do you who like playing in RT like it?

Aside from replaying, what is WEGO except realtime with arbitrary pauses? Only being allowed to issue orders every minute is unrealistic - a gimick that allows for PBEM, and that's just about it. I don't use PBEM, nor am I interested in replaying action.

Orders-every-minute is especially painful in a modern setting - things happen so fast, you could have an entire platoon wiped out before you can even react. The bugs and quirkness associated with AI and spotting make things even worse - I tend to have to babysit most units.

There are huge expanses of time that need no pause at all, and certain cases where I need to be pausing every other second. The only flexible way to do this is with real-time pause-able. </font>

[molotov_billy]

Originally posted by helm123:

So every game that has ever had a period of time after a turn ends to issue order is in essence a RT game by your definition.

No.

[C'Rogers]

It was a big mistake to drop the TCP/IP WEGO format but unfortunately is has become a bone of contention. If BF include it then they will have to admit that they were wrong

Um ... I may be off but wasn't WEGO not included in TC/IP due to technical reasons. They have said since the beginning they want to get something in, however they are still working on what exactly they can do.

If they didn't think WEGO had any merit they wouldn't have bothered coding it at all.

Personally I have only played real time. I have never had a desire to play games of more than a company size (even in CMx1 WEGO). I find it quicker and don't think I have ever paused for a reason besides getting up for a drink.

[helm123]

Originally posted by molotov_billy:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by helm123:

So every game that has ever had a period of time after a turn ends to issue order is in essence a RT game by your definition.

No. </font>

[molotov_billy]

Originally posted by helm123:

I'm not trying to be a pain in the a$$, but please explain then your previous statement. And if the explanation has anything to do with 60 seconds thats incorrect IMO. The 60 seceonds is just a simulated period of time nothing more nothing less. Matrix's War in the Pacific has a turn that simulates 1-7 weeks of time so should that be considered RT aswell. Heck maybe even ASL should be considered a RT board game.

I'm just referring to the CM series in terms of WeGo.

[rammer4250]

Originally posted by molotov_billy:

"Aside from replaying, what is WEGO except realtime with arbitrary pauses? Only being allowed to issue orders every minute is unrealistic - a gimick that allows for PBEM, and that's just about it. I don't use PBEM, nor am I interested in replaying action."

WEGO is not just an arbitrary pause. In RT when you pause you still have full control over your troops. You can instantaneously keep them from doing something stupid (sometimes anyway). However in WEGO you have no control of your troops for a full 60 seconds. Now when you make a foolish plan like marching them out in the open without preliminary recon you pay the price by seeing them get gunned down. You can't stop them. Thus you must have a good plan and good tactics before you press the button to execute. I think WEGO simulates company and above combat well.

I think RT simulates cooperative play well. If there was such an animal? Is there? I guess from what I hear a faster play also. But I play these types of games for the tactics. And good tactics takes time. If I was in a rush to play then I suppose I would like RT.

Rammer out!

[ October 13, 2007, 06:35 AM: Message edited by: rammer4250 ]

[molotov_billy]

Originally posted by rammer4250:

However in WEGO you have no control of your troops for a full 60 seconds.

Absolutely right - not a positive thing, is what I'm saying. Human brains do not work in 1 minute pulses - they react immediately to outside stimuli. A squad leader, or any soldier, does not wait a minute to react to incoming fire. Has nothing to do with planning.

You're putting yourself under arbitrary, unrealistic restrictions - if that's fun to you, great. It isn't, for me, especially in the climate of CMSF AI issues, LOS/LOF issues, etc.

It's 'arbitrary' because it has absolutely nothing to do with what's going on in the game, or how things work in real life.

Aside from all that - if I wanted to, I could do the same thing by playing in RT but restricting my pauses to every minute, or every 30 seconds, or whatever other number I chose. WeGO just doesn't provide anything for me that RT does not.

[Paper Tiger]

Rammer: you might have to wait a long time for that holodeck

I play RT exclusively, not because it's more realistic but becauase I have more control over my units. I AM the Friendly Force AI. I did play WEGO the first couple of times when I got the game to play the training campaign but it was too painful. I switched to RT and had a blast and have never gone back since.

For WW2, I think WEGO would be a much more realistic option for play but in the modern era, well, it's not less realistic but it is a HELL of a lot more lethal an environment and being out of control for 1 minutes is too much. It won't happen but if the WEGO turn was 20 seconds or so, that would be an improvement.

However, what I really like about RT is that I get completely absorbed in the action at one point of the map and forget about what's happening at another. I try not to use PAUSE very often so that there's only so much I can do in RT.

Like you said, until that holodeck comes along the game's not going to be anything like reality. But it is a lot more realistic than any other GAME that I've played and certainly one of the most immersive.

[helm123]

Originally posted by molotov_billy:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by rammer4250:

However in WEGO you have no control of your troops for a full 60 seconds.

Absolutely right - not a positive thing, is what I'm saying. Human brains do not work in 1 minute pulses - they react immediately to outside stimuli. A squad leader, or any soldier, does not wait a minute to react to incoming fire. Has nothing to do with planning.

You're putting yourself under arbitrary, unrealistic restrictions - if that's fun to you, great. It isn't, for me, especially in the climate of CMSF AI issues, LOS/LOF issues, etc.

It's 'arbitrary' because it has absolutely nothing to do with what's going on in the game, or how things work in real life.

Aside from all that - if I wanted to, I could do the same thing by playing in RT but restricting my pauses to every minute, or every 30 seconds, or whatever other number I chose. WeGO just doesn't provide anything for me that RT does not. </font>

[molotov_billy]

Originally posted by helm123:

So when you get right down to it either you want to be the overall commander of the company or you want to be all the platoon commanders at once. It really comes down to preference of how you like your game.

Do you want to issue orders and relax with a beer while the action unfolds (WEGO) or do you want to wait for that beer until the action is over. Its all player choice.

I don't see that CMSF gives us that choice - every command level down to squad (even split squads) require commands directly from the player - how is it that you're choosing to only play company commander and watch things unfold?

What you're describing is a game like "Conquest of the Aegean" where I can literally give a couple of high level commands and watch my AI subordinates create and execute their plans. I don't see how such a thing works in this game, though.

I'm fairly certain that even though you're playing WeGo, you're giving just as many commands as I am in RT, per scenario. The only difference that I can see is that you have an arbitrary restriction of giving those commands in one minute pulses, while a player in RT can give them when and where they are appropriate to the unfolding action.

[rammer4250]

Originally posted by Paper Tiger:

"But it is a lot more realistic than any other GAME that I've played and certainly one of the most immersive."

My sentiments exactly. That's why I like it so much.

Billy

I guess I agree with you about the pause. It is an arbitrary thing but I like the way it sought of simulates fog of war. It could have been 30 seconds or 2 minutes for what it matters. However I think modern combat is a mixture of slow and cautious and fast and violent. Slow and cautious until the enemy is located and then fast and violent to kill the located enemy. This is just conjecture but I feel most RT games lends itself to the mentality of speed without caution. The "rush" that some players use in RTS games is a perfect example of this mentality. Find, fix, flank and finish - find and fix is definitely the slow and cautionary part while flank and finish is the fast and violent part.

I guess it just boils down to what mode people prefer. I have played in RT mode and totally hate it even on a relatively small scenario like the first battle (I forgot the name) in the battle list. To keep track of everything you mostly have to keep clicking pause every five seconds anyway. I guess I just like the surprise factor of being out of control for a short period. It forces you to have discipline and use caution rather than rush in and have that instantaneous abilty to rescue your troops. I usually won't move until I'm sure the coast is pretty much clear and the enemy is indeed found and fixed.

[ October 14, 2007, 06:40 AM: Message edited by: rammer4250 ]

[helm123]

Originally posted by molotov_billy:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by helm123:

So when you get right down to it either you want to be the overall commander of the company or you want to be all the platoon commanders at once. It really comes down to preference of how you like your game.

Do you want to issue orders and relax with a beer while the action unfolds (WEGO) or do you want to wait for that beer until the action is over. Its all player choice.

I don't see that CMSF gives us that choice - every command level down to squad (even split squads) require commands directly from the player - how is it that you're choosing to only play company commander and watch things unfold?

What you're describing is a game like "Conquest of the Aegean" where I can literally give a couple of high level commands and watch my AI subordinates create and execute their plans. I don't see how such a thing works in this game, though.

I'm fairly certain that even though you're playing WeGo, you're giving just as many commands as I am in RT, per scenario. The only difference that I can see is that you have an arbitrary restriction of giving those commands in one minute pulses, while a player in RT can give them when and where they are appropriate to the unfolding action. </font>

[Zemke]

WEGO is or was the very heart and soul of what made Combat Mission....well Combat Mission. Everything else has been done before to some degree or another. Real Time is not new, and for a war game like this I think a big step backwards. BF doesn't even use the term WEGO, now it is "turn based". Which I don't understand why they also seem to want to distance themselves from the brilliant innovation that was WEGO in Combat Mission. Out of all the things missing in CMSF, this is the most glaring of all. I cannot count how many PBEM opponents of mine who have told me they are not going to get CMSF as it is now, or have stopped playing CMSF as it is now...because of what is NOT in a game that is called Combat Mission. It's almost like CMSF was designed by another team of designers who were told "make a new game that is like CMBB/CMAK and make it better, and oh by the way make it RT too, we need to appeal to a new market." BF can come back from this mistake, and the patching processes so far shows good signs. Why not allow choices for everyone? Why not have everything CMBO/CMBB/CMAK had and the improvements of CMSF??? If this was the case CMSF would have been hailed as, not only good, but great, and sales would have been higher. Battlefront's reputation and the reputation of the earlier CM series are what have carried CMSF forward to date, not the game itself.