MikeyD Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 A bit old, from about half a month ago: December 15, 2005 General Dynamics Delivers First Production Stryker MGS Vehicles "STERLING HEIGHTS, Mich. - General Dynamics Land Systems yesterday delivered the first two of 72 low-rate initial production (LRIP) Stryker Mobile Gun System (MGS) variant vehicles to the U.S. Army at Anniston (Ala.) Army Depot. The Stryker MGS... ...carries 18 rounds of NATO-standard 105mm main gun ammunition; 400 rounds of .50 caliber ammunition; and 3,400 rounds of 7.62mm ammunition. It destroys enemy vehicles, equipment and hardened positions with its bunker and wall-breaching capability. The MGS LRIP vehicles will be used for various tests and user evaluations through the fourth quarter of 2007. The Milestone C decision to begin full-rate production of the MGS variant is slated for the fourth quarter of 2007 as well. " Well... 4th quarter of 2007 is still 2007. Might just be able to make it into the game under the deadline. [ January 05, 2006, 04:05 PM: Message edited by: MikeyD ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellfish Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 I hope at least some of those 72 make their way to Iraq. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 Oh yes, they will The testing time period is PERFECT for CM:SF. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted January 6, 2006 Author Share Posted January 6, 2006 About MGS in Iraq, with its low hull rear I can't imagine how they could fit a standard Slat cage to an MGS body. So time will tell what an 'in-theater' MGS will actually look like. Maybe for MGS they'd stick with that reactive armor package they had designed for Stryker some time ago, though the reactive armor is much heavier than the cage design. Translation, no matter how hard BFC tries for an accurate MGS polygon there's going to be some detail difference that's going to bite them in the arse :mad: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goatsee Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 Originally posted by Battlefront.com: Oh yes, they will The testing time period is PERFECT for CM:SF. Steve But in another thread you said....(regarding fielding weapon systems and time frames..) Obviously. However, if there is no indication that the US military is interested in procuring and fielding in time for CM:SF, then it won't be included. There is no reason to willy nilly include things that are "cool" just because they theoretically could be used. That gets us into a whole new realm of fantasy that we don't want to go anywhere near. So unless there is substantial evidence that a system or munition will be online with the US Army by early 2007, it isn't going to be found in CM:SF [ January 06, 2006, 08:06 AM: Message edited by: Goatsee ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellfish Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 Well... with 72 expected to be fielded by 2007 for "testing", chances are some will get deployed to combat zones. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goatsee Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 No the report does not say that. It says initial trial vehicles will be tested through the 4th quarter 2007. Initial production DECISION is slated to begin in the fourth quarter then. I am feeling a pro-Stryker sentiment on the behalf of this software company. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted January 6, 2006 Author Share Posted January 6, 2006 Please please please, DON'T try to talk them out of Stryker MGS! I saw the same thing happen on the CMBB thread when there was an inexplicable uprising against the possible inclusion of the Maus superheavy in the game 'just for fun'. So we didn't get to play with Maus. Even Stryker Brigade commanders complain that Stryker Brigade is operating under a handicap without a direct fire cannon for infantry support. Plus, six months into the game's production when Stryker MGS's are filling the news reports a MGS-free CMSF would suddenly look rather outdated. Plus, if MGS is excluded ever person who buys the game and installs it will exclaim "Hey, where's my f***king MGS!!" :eek: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Cairns Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 Hows this for a compromise, Include the MGS in the game as part of the Stryker force TOE, but don't include it in any of the module scenarios. That way the 2007 scenario is accurate, but players can use it in there own 2008plus scenarios. Peter. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goatsee Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 Hey! Just move the game to 2008 or 2009! Its all fiction anyway. But my point is that when it comes to certain weapon systems, theres a bias and when it comes to others, theres a gushing acceptance. I am sure Iran and Syria and anyone else that is not chummy with the USA is watching current military reports and buying weapons accordingly. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 Originally posted by MikeyD: Plus, if MGS is excluded ever person who buys the game and installs it will exclaim "Hey, where's my f***king MGS!!" :eek: Well, it's supposed to be an accurate simulation-type thing. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 Goatsee, I am feeling a pro-Stryker sentiment on the behalf of this software company.Then you don't see so well I can just about promise you that if the US went to war against Syria in mid 2007 (our chosen time) that at least one, probably two, Stryker Brigades would be used. Whatever MGS vehicles in service would, without a question in my mind, be rushed into battle. Ready or not. As it so happens, you have misunderstood the news tidbit that Mikey posted. The initial 72 units will be delivered, in part or in full, by 2007. They've already delivered 2, so each month that number will rise. At a rate of about 4-6 a month they'd have the whole run finished before mid 2007 and therefore in time for CM:SF. In Q4 2007 they expect to go into full production based on lessons learned from the first 72, which themselves will be a progression of improvements (i.e. #72 made will not be the same as #1). Also, a Stryker Brigade has a grand total of 27 MGS (3 per Company, 3 Companies per Battalion, 3 Battalions per Brigade). That means the initial production run, which is due to be completed around the time of CM:SF, is enough to outfit two and a half Brigades. Assuming that some are rejected for frontline service and/or aren't produced, it is near certain that there would be enough MGS vehicles to outfit at least a single Stryker Brigade by the time CM:SF's setting. More likely at least 1.5 Brigades. So... contrary to Goatsee's opinion, we are being extremely logical and level headed about this. I suggest that Goatsee is the one that is not. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goatsee Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 Originally posted by Goatsee: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Battlefront.com: Oh yes, they will The testing time period is PERFECT for CM:SF. Steve But in another thread you said....(regarding fielding weapon systems and time frames..) Obviously. However, if there is no indication that the US military is interested in procuring and fielding in time for CM:SF, then it won't be included. There is no reason to willy nilly include things that are "cool" just because they theoretically could be used. That gets us into a whole new realm of fantasy that we don't want to go anywhere near. So unless there is substantial evidence that a system or munition will be online with the US Army by early 2007, it isn't going to be found in CM:SF </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 Mikey, Don't worry. The Forum has never, ever had an impact on us including strange stuff. The Maus never, ever had a snowball's chance in Hell of getting into CMBB Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted January 6, 2006 Author Share Posted January 6, 2006 "It's all fictional anyway." Well, I'd use the word hypothetical, not fictional. Hypothetical is "What would happen we went to war against Syria", Fictional is "Let's have everybody flying around on broomsticks shooting thunderbolts". All wargaming is hypothetical to one degree or another, even the strict historical recreations. About the latest Stryker details. I don't know if BFC saw these picts from the AUSA conference: Recent MGS picts AND MORE off another chat group 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellfish Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 Originally posted by Goatsee: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Goatsee: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Battlefront.com: Oh yes, they will The testing time period is PERFECT for CM:SF. Steve But in another thread you said....(regarding fielding weapon systems and time frames..) Obviously. However, if there is no indication that the US military is interested in procuring and fielding in time for CM:SF, then it won't be included. There is no reason to willy nilly include things that are "cool" just because they theoretically could be used. That gets us into a whole new realm of fantasy that we don't want to go anywhere near. So unless there is substantial evidence that a system or munition will be online with the US Army by early 2007, it isn't going to be found in CM:SF </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 Originally posted by MikeyD: About the latest Stryker details. I don't know if BFC saw these picts from the AUSA conference: Recent MGS picts AND MORE off another chat group WOW Thanks for the link Every person reading this thread should be interested and looking at those pics. They are AFV pics from a trade show floor. Pics of new AFV's hot off the production line and polished and presented to show their most glamorous and attactive AFV features. No mud or dirt anywhere, all very nicely shown somewhat like a custom car show.... -tom w 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 Goatsee, worth rereadingSure is, otherwise I wouldn't have written it This is also worth reading, and not just because I wrote it: Also, a Stryker Brigade has a grand total of 27 MGS (3 per Company, 3 Companies per Battalion, 3 Battalions per Brigade). That means the initial production run, which is due to be completed around the time of CM:SF, is enough to outfit two and a half Brigades. Assuming that some are rejected for frontline service and/or aren't produced, it is near certain that there would be enough MGS vehicles to outfit at least a single Stryker Brigade by the time CM:SF's setting. More likely at least 1.5 Brigades. Unless the MGS program is once again put on hold (and there are ZERO indications of that happening), the MGS will be in CM:SF. Mikey, thanks for the links and once again clarifying for the masses what the difference between hypothetical and fictional are in terms of a tactical wargame. We are very carefully assembling a simulation of what is likely to happen in 2007 if there is an invasion of Syria. That is our primary interest in making CM:SF. We are not interested in making a simulation of things just for the sake of "coolness" or "what if" factors. We'll save that for the Space Lobsters of Doom release Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goatsee Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 Testing is typically done in controlled environments. Data can be collected and analyzed. Is the MGS slated for field trials (Iraq)? I have not heard that they have. More than likely, true testing will reveal the need for redesign of many sub-systems and retrofitting/reprogramming. If the supposed Syrian scenario is to jump-off quickly, it would more than likely involve units in theatre. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goatsee Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 So unless there is substantial evidence that a system or munition will be online with the US Army by early 2007, it isn't going to be found in CM:SF I am just pointing out that you said early 2007. Thats all. Online means limited production then? Units need to train with equipment. Qualify, etc. I think that is fairly optimistic of you considering the delays so far in MGS. And the MGS has been rushed into acceptance and training/production HAS been rolled together. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellfish Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 What suprises me about the inside of the MGS is how much internal space seems wasted. It looks like you could fit in probably a good 20-30 additional 105mm rounds in there to manually reload the autoloader carousel with. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goatsee Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 As a bunker buster platform, MGS would take a back seat to a TOW BB. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dook Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 There are several recent examples of weapons systems that are not yet in full-rate production being pressed into action when a conflict begins and they are deemed potentially useful. JSTARS in Desert Storm and Global Hawk in OEF are two of the most well-known ones. If Stryker MGS's were available, they would likely be used. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellfish Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 Bunker busting is one thing, but there are only 12-14 Stryker TOWs in the entire brigade. There are what, 27 MGSes? And they're under direct control of the company commander. Plus, the 105s have a lot of neat and useful rounds like cannister and plain old HE, not to mention APFSDS. Just wish it carried more of them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goatsee Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 As far as I know, firing tests for the MGS started in November 2005 and will continue through 2006. The MGS is already too heavy for airlift from some reprts. Its a slow boat load now. Hopefully the tests will be with full bird cage or reactive armor applied and will include side firing on side slopes while moving. Pressing a MGS into usefullness when it has auto-loading problems would be foolish. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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