TacAI should handle tanks better when shot at with ATGMs

[winkelried]

I feel, that the TacAI should handle the defensive/evasive behaviour of tanks against ATGMs better.

Often you see the ATGM firing (eg. dust thrown up, flash when firing) quite well. In these situations a tank with a LOS and actual sighting of the ATGM firing should immediately take evasive maneuvers (like placing a shot into the direction of the ATGM, rushing for the next cover, popping smoke and reversing etc).

When you do this manually in RT mode you can handle one tank quite well and with some success against ATGMs. But I feel this kind of micromanagement should be done by the TacAI (maybe as an option - like the hunt command)

[molotov_billy]

Absolutely agree. The only thing that seems to influence the TacAI to shoot at enemy targets is distance (not unit type) - so ATGM's seem to often get ignored.

Considering their deadliness, ATGM's should usually be the primary targets even for infantry, not just tanks.

[winkelried]

interesting would also be the kind of automatic counter-measures modern tanks have against laser guided weapons - such as automatic popping smoke.

[Huntarr]

http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=52;t=003214

being discussed already

[molotov_billy]

Originally posted by Huntarr:

http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=52;t=003214

being discussed already

Did a text search for "ATGM" in there, didn't see anything. Automatic counter-fire at ATGM's seems like a seperate topic, to me.

[Sixxkiller]

I believe reverse would be part of defensive/evasive behavior.

[Huntarr]

well since the units now DO automaticly counter-fire at AT weapons then by your definition your topic is closed, but since they do NOT evade as was discussed in the original OP that is part of several other threads. Try a search for TacAI, or Evade

Next time before you start a semantic debate think it thorough? but you can continue to be counter productive if you wish, billy

[thewood]

Huntaar, it may be a good idea to back off the thread police thing a little and let the debate go. Sometimes the threads aren't really related and it is not necessarily a bad thing to let them go. It can be difficult to search through a thread with a hundred responses and search doesn't always bring the right thread to the surface.

[ October 15, 2007, 11:41 AM: Message edited by: thewood ]

[molotov_billy]

Huntarr - no, not being counter-productive or attempting to start a 'semantic debate.' (What word definition am I trying to debate?)

I've actually never seen a bradley or a stryker counter-fire at a distant ATGM that has opened fire on them - there must be a bug, then. ATGM's seem like they should be a special case, and it doesn't have to do with just evasive maneuvering.

Like I said earlier, I would expect them to become a primary target for both vehicles and their supporting troops - it seems like only distance determines what targets a unit fires at. In other words, given equal distance to target, they're just as likely to fire at a vanilla infantry squad as they are an ATGM (which can take out half of my armored force.}

[ October 15, 2007, 10:19 AM: Message edited by: molotov_billy ]

[M1A1TC]

In real life, we practice "sagger drill". Basically, when your tank is advancing, and someone on the crew notices an incomming missile, they all yell "sagger" and driver begins doing zig-zags forward.

In defensive battle position, when a missile if fired at you, you back staight down or in zig-zag pattern.

US tanks dont have active anti-lazer system like Shtora on Russian tanks. The smoke is all manual

[The_Capt]

Guys keep in mind some of the ranges these engagements are happening. Tanks are getting at best a couple seconds to react in any built up area.

For long range fights; definitely but there isn't much you can do in a couple of seconds IF you can spot the launch.

Definitely room for TacAI improvement...always will be but in the knife fights we see in CMSF it really won't help.

[Lurker765]

I have had Strykers sit at the crest of a hill and watch as the RPGs pound the ground at their wheels until one finally hits. In a WEGO PBEM turn that took probably 40 seconds before one was finally hit. The one next to it never moved until I gave it the order at the beginning of the next turn.

So, the knife fight range didn't matter much in the case I encountered. A reverse down the hill would have been nice.

[Neepster]

For those who have been in actual tanks, how easy IS it to see an ATGM launched at you?

Unless you are unbuttoned or they miss the first shot or two (or you get hit and survive), I can't imagine it is very easy to see someone launch one at you.

I mean, you are in a big metal can with a couple of small vision blocks to try to look through. I'd be lucky if I could figure out which direction I was driving...

[molotov_billy]

Originally posted by The_Capt:

Guys keep in mind some of the ranges these engagements are happening. Tanks are getting at best a couple seconds to react in any built up area.

Have you played the scenario "Hammertime"? It's a good repro case for the behavior that I'm talking about. ATGM's will reveal themselves to a number of Bradleys at long range by opening fire.

Bradleys have both their cannon and TOW's that would be very effective at those ranges, but they do nothing (and yes, I've verified that the Bradleys can see them, and they do fire If I manually target.) Infantry also do not engage those teams, even though it would be extremely valuable (even for supression) for them to do so.

[M1A1TC]

Originally posted by Neepster:

For those who have been in actual tanks, how easy IS it to see an ATGM launched at you?

Unless you are unbuttoned or they miss the first shot or two (or you get hit and survive), I can't imagine it is very easy to see someone launch one at you.

I mean, you are in a big metal can with a couple of small vision blocks to try to look through. I'd be lucky if I could figure out which direction I was driving...

Well, since most of the time (hopefully) the enemy is going to be to your front. So even a driver could spot it ( I had before in a training simulator) but in Rl its not bloody likely

[Chainsaw]

Originally posted by Neepster:

For those who have been in actual tanks, how easy IS it to see an ATGM launched at you?

Unless you are unbuttoned or they miss the first shot or two (or you get hit and survive), I can't imagine it is very easy to see someone launch one at you.

I mean, you are in a big metal can with a couple of small vision blocks to try to look through. I'd be lucky if I could figure out which direction I was driving...

I sat unbuttoned in a PBV302 advancing over an open field, without binos and I saw the blast from the TOW (simulated Tow that is!) being fired at 3kms range, and the fire markings we have in our training stuff are smaller then real stuff... 15 seconds later or so I was Knocked Out.. dang... (open plains and no cover is deadly)

/Chain

[thelmia]

I've killed SACLOS ATGM teams and their missile still hits.

[Bigduke6]

I never spent much time in tanks, but here's a POV from some one who spent some time trying to figure out how to smack them with missiles.

It's all a question of how on-the-ball the targeted people are. If the unit is tanks and apcs and every one has his eyeballs peeled and is actively looking, a missile launch gets reported almost instantaneously and the missile gunner gets hosed with automatic fire in maybe 1-2 seconds. It can be really fast.

But if tank is buttoned, or LOS sucks, or there's a goodly amount of smoke around so it's not easy to tell where the missile got launched, or the terrain (houses, woods, etc.) sucks up the smoke from the launched missile, or there are just tanks and not apcs, or (second most effective) the tank is worried about something besides missiles, or (most effective) no one happens to be looking where the missile is coming from, then missiles can be deadly.

That's one of the reasons helicopters are so effective as tank killers - once the shooting starts tank crews are looking for things that they can shoot, and that usually doesn't include a chopper outside the tank's normal engagement range.

My opinion, a buttoned tank on its own should pretty much be dead meat for a normal missile launch unless the launch was directly at the turret front and the crew wasn't distracted with something else. When buttoned, there should be a narrow sighting arc for armored vehicles, and they should be pretty blind outside it.

[Bigduke6]

Oh yeah, and tdon't forget artillery. The standard drill is when the tank stops, you drop artillery on it, which makes it button, and with all the bangs and splinters hitting the tank makes the tank crew think about other things than missiles.

Sometimes easier said than done, but that's the drill.

[winkelried]

Modern ATGMs like AT-14 (or 9M133) Kornet do beamriding SACLOS (Semi-Automatic Command to Line of Sight) using a laser beam. Since also tanks and other units on the battlefield use laser-range finder some tanks are now fitted with laser warning devices. No need for the crew to look around. Does anybody know if one of the tanks available in CMSF is fitted with those devices in real-life and if CMSF does model this sensor. Same question would apply to millimetre radar (also used by some ATGMs).

[hoolaman]

Originally posted by Huntarr:

well since the units now DO automaticly counter-fire at AT weapons then by your definition your topic is closed, but since they do NOT evade as was discussed in the original OP that is part of several other threads. Try a search for TacAI, or Evade

Next time before you start a semantic debate think it thorough? but you can continue to be counter productive if you wish, billy

I must have missed the announcement where you were left in charge of the entire forum.

If you actually have been left in charge of the entire forum (god forbid), why not ask BFC to give you moderator powers so you can lock all the topics that offend you and ban people who make posts you don't approve of?

People will take a bit of stick from the BFC crew, but not from "some guy".

[Exel]

Originally posted by M1A1TankCommander:

In real life, we practice "sagger drill". Basically, when your tank is advancing, and someone on the crew notices an incomming missile, they all yell "sagger" and driver begins doing zig-zags forward.

What he said. Reversing would only make sense if there's cover immediately available, and that rarely is the case if you're advancing. Popping smoke wont do you any good either if you're moving forward. Zig-zagging and shooting back at the spotted ATGM launcher or its general direction are the standard counter-actions.