US2UN Mod: Euro-camo uniforms v2.0 released

[birdstrike]

I am about to release an update for my US2UN Mod but looking for a little input.

We all know that buddy aid is in the game and I was thinking about putting a medic sign on the the Gas Mask case for some soldiers. But first I wanted to hear some opinions, in case this is too far off.

There are two options I'm considering right now, either I go with one or both or none.

EDIT:

Mod is now available at CMMODS

[ June 08, 2008, 07:57 AM: Message edited by: birdstrike ]

[Chainsaw]

left one, the right ones looks to civie to me

[slug88]

Or why not release both? I'd take the left, though. Looking excellent, by the way.

[birdstrike]

Thanks, guys.

After sleeping over it, I too think I'll stick with the red one.

[LongLeftFlank]

The red cross is derived (as is the word "hospital") from the Red Cross of the Holy Order of the Knights of St. John Hospitaller of Jerusalem (subsequently the Knights of Malta), i.e. crusaders. I'm therefore curious whether its presence causes Middle Eastern enemies to hold fire or just reinforces their mythology regarding foreign occupation.

There is, of course, also a Red Crescent, but I suspect this is regarded by the Salafi as a mockery and an emblem of apostates and collaborators.

[Pandur]

wasnt it some guy, Henry Dounant or so, wich invented the red cross, and didnt he choose the red cross becouse there was something with "red crosses" pained with blood on foreheads of wounded guys to mark them!? i dont know where i picked that up, i didnt found something in the net about it(the red crosses as marks).

Wiki says to the flag it was choosen a red cross on whith background as honour to swizerland(his native land), wich has the white cross on red background. they delibarately choose the opposite.

also this Henry only got the idea about such a organisation after he whitnessed the aftermath of the battle of solferino in 1859. thats quiet past the crussaders.

so i dont know, i guess the red cross is "ok" to use

[ June 07, 2008, 07:37 PM: Message edited by: Pandur ]

[Field Marshal Blücher]

Pandur, I'd agree with your main point.

However, grog point: The Order of St. John, while it is no longer a crusading order, is still active, and in fact remained a knightly order up until the 1790s.

-FMB

[birdstrike]

Though, IIRC the Order of St. John uses the Maltese cross

It's quite interesting how many different variations of the cross were/are used over the centuries. And red seemed to have been quite a popular color, too - didn't have Spanish ships an ornamented red cross on their sails in the 15th or 16th century? Not to mention all the national flags bearing some sort of cross.

[birdstrike]

I have uploaded the new mod to CMMODs.com

US2UN Mod: Euro Uniforms V2.0:

Medic textures are optional.

Enjoy

[Bertram]

It was a Swiss guy that started the red cross, and he used the "inverted" Swiss flag (which is red with a white cross) for its symbol.

So the relation of the cross to Chistianity is seconday at best. The link with the red cross the crusaders were wearing (though mainly in Hollywood)doesn't exist at all.

Sadly the historical education in the Arabic world seems to be as lacking as on this forum, and they do take exception to the red cross.

[LongLeftFlank]

Originally posted by Bertram:

Sadly the historical education in the Arabic world seems to be as lacking as on this forum, and they do take exception to the red cross.

Hmm. For someone who's been on this forum since 2000, you should know better. Or perhaps you are an eminent medievalist, in which case, sure, we'd all look pretty ignorant by comparison. In that case, please educate us and spare the sarcasm. That's why many of us are here, because we're interested in this sort of stuff.

That being said, you are likely on point with "the relation of the cross to Christianity is secondary at best".

(I suppose I'm also open to the inverted Swiss flag interpretation, although I'd like to see a source for that).

The Red Cross was formed in the mid 19th century, at a time when European and American middle/upper classes had grown sufficiently wealthy, educated, empowered, outward-looking and empathetic to be moved by human suffering, even when far from home among benighted heathen, Negro slaves or common soldiers (the latter were still viewed widely, and with some justification, as one step above common bandits). The Swiss businessman, traveler and humanitarian Henry Doumont would be a prime specimen of this new breed. It took several market panics, anarchist bombings and World War I to take the sunny optimism out of these folks.

At the same time, there was an explosion of interest in medieval history and legend among this same class, including the Crusades (see Norman Cantor's wonderful book "Inventing the Middle Ages") with all its parallels to contemporary imperialism (Onward Christian Soldiers, all that).

Of course, the bourgeoisie of any age (like Hollywood) tends to be far more interested in romanticizing history for its own purposes than in getting historical facts right and in proper context (take a look at a few pre-Raphaelite paintings to get the idea).

So what more fitting symbol for a new enlightened multinational order of White Men (and Women) bringing charity among sinners and the innocent alike than the kindly and brave Hospitallers of yore? And they were Crusaders, right? Well, Red Cross it is then!*

* Not that dull historical fact would have bothered a 19th century romantic swooning over Byron, and Bulwer-Lytton, but IIRC the red cross on a white field was better known as a Templar emblem. (although didn't Bohemond of Sicily cut up his red cloak into crosses for his barons to wear or sumfink for the First Crusade?)

IIRC, the Templars and Hospitallers grew to hate one another, being rivals in the burgeoning business of escorting pilgrims to the Holy Land (for a "contribution"). Of course, the Hospitallers turned out to have a wiser long term reinvestment strategy, building castles in durable places like Rhodes, Cyprus and Malta as opposed to repatriating wealth to Europe where it could eventually be seized by monarchs like Philip the Fair. But I digress.

[Pandur]

i couldnt find any better source in english on short time...

http://history-switzerland.geschichte-schweiz.ch/history-flag-switzerland.html

at the bottom of the page you get told that general Dufour had the idea to inverte the swiss flag.

Dufour proposed the reversal of the swiss flag (red cross on white ground) as an emblem.

The national Red Cross organizations in non-christian countries interpreted the Red Cross as a Christian symbol, however, and replaced it by their own religious symbols (red crescent moon in islamic countries, red david star in Israel). The color red on white background was retained.

i personally dont belive that the red cross as symbol for this organsiation has anything to do with any knightly order, or crusades or the like. i mean they wouldnt have allowed to use "red crescent or david stars" for a christion crusader organisation, in the countries wher the represantation of a cross would have been most imporatant!?

still they allowed to replace it with their own religious symbols.

[Field Marshal Blücher]

LongLeftFlank,

Your theory is interesting. I find it highly believable that the Victorians would simply ignore the fact that Hospitaller crosses were usually white on black or white on red, seeing as they completely invented all kinds of things about the middle ages (they're whom we got the completely unauthentic term "chain" mail from, after all).

However, it does seem that all the evidence points to the inversion of the Swiss flag being the actual reason behind the Red Cross symbol.

-FMB

[Combatintman]

Which is what it is (inverted Swiss flag) at the end of the day - can't understand why this is being debated

[birdstrike]

Who would have thought an innocent little question would spark this debate...

Anyway, from what I know, the red cross is based on the inverted swiss flag, notwithstanding that there were alot of crosses (red and otherwise) used thoughout history in Europe and of course, during the crusades (as evident in their name ).

It is perhaps interesting to note that in Germany, there exists a "Johanniter Unfallhilfe", a paramedic and humanitarian volunteer service similar to the red cross which is affiliated with the protestant Order of St. John in Germany and traces its roots back to the Hospitaller Knights. They use a white Maltese cross instead of the red cross.

Wiki link

Johanniter Ambulance (note the Maltese cross)

And there also is a "Malteser Hilfsdienst", which is the Catholic equivalent of the "Johanniter", but they are using a red maltese cross. It was founded by the Order of Malta which has the same roots as above.

Since both organizations are affiliated with Christian organizations, their symbols carry that religious meaning much more than the red cross.

However, even as the red cross is derived from the swiss flag, it still maintaing a religious symbolism (like the swiss flag), and I'm sure that Dufour was very well aware of that, as were the ones who picked a white cross on red for the swiss flag.