Fed up

[Dirtweasle]

Consumers get testy when they feel they are not being treated fairly, when their expectation are not being met.

One thing that would help is a list of the reported bugs or gripes updated in a timely fashion noting if they are acknowledged as a legit bug or a gameplay issue or something like that and if any progress is being made towards resolution.

Is the example of the soldiers trapped underground a bug or a glitch in the map or what?

The LOS issue is another example. We still don;t know if a squad unit in CMSF shown as 8 or 10 soldiers uses a single point of view, one eye fashion, or 8 - 10 sets of eyes. I suspect it must be one point, a single eye, and this is at the heart of some of the odd things you see while playing the game.

[76mm]

Sorry for jumping on ya, MarkEzra, I think we're more or less in the same place.

My real problem with the game is that I'm not really interested in the Syrian setting, so all the kerfuffle about the next patch is kind of meaningless to me. I don't know if 1.05 will make everything right or not, but am pretty confident that BFC will get it working really well in time for the WWII game, which is all I'm really worried about.

[dalem]

Originally posted by MarkEzra:

2000 downloads of one scen not enough for you...?

Correct. It's not the 2,000 part that's indicative, it's the "one scenario" part. It tells me that there are relatively few scenarios to start with and one or two stars.

That tells me that it's either Very Hard to make scenarios or that there is Not Much interest in doing so. Or maybe both. But in and of itself it is a worrisome point, not a relieving one.

-dale

[Dirtweasle]

I've tried the scenario editor / map maker while waiting for the game to be finished and it's much more complicated than I would like.

I used to make quite a few maps for CMx1, and figured to do the same with CMSF, but it's actually more of a chore.

Possibly because the game itself is more of a chore to play I don't see the pay off to spending hours and hours making the maps and partially it's just more difficult to make them.

[MarkEzra]

It's really OK...I get my 76's confused anyhow.

The Syrian hardware actually interest me and I play red a lot...It's like playing US against German hardware...got to really pay attention to tactics. And of course I look forward to WW2 just like so many of us do.

[Sirocco]

Originally posted by Sixxkiller:

Then you have someone attack MarkEzra for doing his damndest to improve CM's experience by having a site that hosts user created maps. I mean the guy disagrees with someone and provides a figure about a map having x ammount of downloads, and gets labasted for his trouble...

You mean in this thread? Because what I saw was Mark referring to a scenario having 2000 downloads - most impressive, I agree - and others pointing out that one swallow does not make a spring, as it were.

[Sixxkiller]

But that for me is the leap this genre needed. Scenarios for WWII are going to be far better IMO.

I also think the lack of scenarios have a lot to do with smaller interest in modern settings than WWII, just as WWI would. I mean the West is so far ahead in technology it's not really a fair fight. I think BFC made a game that incorporates a bit more balance where there is none than they will need in future WWII offerings.

Originally posted by Dirtweasle:

I've tried the scenario editor / map maker while waiting for the game to be finished and it's much more complicated than I would like.

I used to make quite a few maps for CMx1, and figured to do the same with CMSF, but it's actually more of a chore.

Possibly because the game itself is more of a chore to play I don't see the pay off to spending hours and hours making the maps and partially it's just more difficult to make them.

[dalem]

Originally posted by Sixxkiller:

What's your point here dale? I mean I fail to understand why you sit at your keyboard and try to mount an attack on me. I mean what did I really say that would get this sort of attention?

It was your "bragging" about being satisfied with v1.05. And it's not an "attack" on you specifically - I could have easily used a post by a few of the other guys that have said similar things in similar ways. I mean, think of what you're doing as the equivalent of walking beyond a barricade of starving people while you openly munch on a piece of apple pie.

It's not a perfect analogy but it's a parallel - you have to eat the pie of course - that's what you agreed to do, but you don't have to say "mmm-MM! This pie is gooooooood!" whilst rubbing your belly.

Likewise, you are beta testing v1.05. Good for you. Be a good business front man for it and talk it up appropriately or don't mention it at all.

And ya obviously I am a beta tester, playing 1.05, and as I stated, loving it for the most part. My swagger as you call it, I fail to see WTF that has to do with anything, and to top it off, what swagger? I made a statement that had nothing to do with the NDA and wasn't run by BFC before I made it.

See? Why is it obvious to me that you are a beta tester? Why should I know? For the rest, see above.

And BTW, this may be the reason why you "potential customers" and "owners" of CMSF may not be getting the information you think you deserve. I mean attacking me for an innoculous statement that I was enjoying the game ... No wonder you arent getting any info, attacking the people giving you it. Real smart.

So you are promoting the business model of punishing current and potential customers for getting your feelings hurt? Heck, I didn't even start this thread - I don't have any questions about CMSF currently. I made a couple of comments about customer service, that's all.

Seriously did you even buy the game dale or are you just trolling? Talk about someone needing "policing".

The fact that I've not purchased this game is probably about as obvious to you as your beta tester status is to me. I've stated it clearly in a dozen threads - no reason for you to have read those comments though. And I've been around long enough to know what constitutes trolling around here - I'm not doing it. If I were starting a dozen threads a month banging my particular drum or the like, then sure, label me a troll. But I try to limit my posts to threads where my concerns are relevant, and I think I mostly succeed.

-dale

[MarkEzra]

Originally posted by Dirtweasle:

I've tried the scenario editor / map maker while waiting for the game to be finished and it's much more complicated than I would like.

I used to make quite a few maps for CMx1, and figured to do the same with CMSF, but it's actually more of a chore.

Possibly because the game itself is more of a chore to play I don't see the pay off to spending hours and hours making the maps and partially it's just more difficult to make them.

The editor is much more detailed, certainly. And different from old CM in many ways. Frankly I was somewhat intimidated by the thing. But once I dived in I really loved it. AI editor is the key to the kingdom...and now that I've got the hang of it...well I want them to add more detail....micro manager me... I couldn't agree more that scen design is more complex and labor intensive. For Me the finished product is worth the effort.

[Abbott]

He likes to try and wield that Scenario like a bayonet...smoke screen? Of course it doesn't address any of the main concerns of broken game functions such as LOS/LOF, clunky UI and the game not doing what it said it would do..

[Webwing]

Originally posted by Dirtweasle:

I've tried the scenario editor / map maker while waiting for the game to be finished and it's much more complicated than I would like.

I used to make quite a few maps for CMx1, and figured to do the same with CMSF, but it's actually more of a chore.

Possibly because the game itself is more of a chore to play I don't see the pay off to spending hours and hours making the maps and partially it's just more difficult to make them.

The editor in the previous CM games was very simple indeed.

This one is very powerful.

But you see, if you are satisfied with just a very rustic scenario, ala CMx1, it can be done in no time.

The beauty of this game in my opinion is that you can just throw in a few walls, some trees and a few flat houses and have a memorable battle if you know what you are doing.

Think of the new editor as Word for Windows( bad comparison sorry, I hate it ).

There is a lot of stuff you can do with it but if you want to just type a fast text, its up to you.

Maybe I'll do a video tutorial for that...

I can't believe people will start criticizing the editor. I have been messing with this stuff from MODers or from the developers themselves for loads of games. This software is the best compromise between ease of use and powerful features I've seen.

-

[ November 27, 2007, 02:06 PM: Message edited by: Webwing ]

[Dirtweasle]

There were some tutorials around that I read through that were helpful, another read-through or another from a different perspective couldn't hurt.

The two main things I get hung up on are;

1. AI scripting and design - I was concerned this might be more than I was up for, and so far that has been proved right.

2. Contour lines - This seems like it ought to simple, trace a line and snap the delta in but damned if I am doing it right.

[Dirtweasle]

Originally posted by Abbott:

Of course it doesn't address any of the main concerns of broken game functions such as LOS/LOF, clunky UI and the game not doing what it said it would do..

Oh... hmmmm, well, i figured he's got 1.05 where that's all fixed up.

[ChrisND]

Wow. I leave this forum for a couple of monthes, because of all the people who were bitching, hoping they would have gotten bored and left.

I come back.... they are still bitching... and about the same things no less? Don't some of you have better things to do?

[Webwing]

Originally posted by Dirtweasle:

There were some tutorials around that I read through that were helpful, another read-through or another from a different perspective couldn't hurt.

The two main things I get hung up on are;

1. AI scripting and design - I was concerned this might be more than I was up for, and so far that has been proved right.

2. Contour lines - This seems like it ought to simple, trace a line and snap the delta in but damned if I am doing it right.

Dirtweasle,

If you are planing Human x Human then no AI needed.

If you can settle for an attacking player against a deffending AI minimal or no AI neede either.

As for contour lines they can be a bit of a pain if you want to get too detailed which I gether is not what you want. For a CMx1 style map should not take more than 2 minutes to do.

I will try to make a video tutorial on those two topics as soon as I find the time. People seem to have liked them. Did it for TOW editor and the last time I checked more 3.000 downloads. Mind you TOW's editor is A LOTmore complex than CMSF's.

--

[Dirtweasle]

The last map I tried to do featured a dry creek in a shallow valley, a ridge on either side with a few hills, a kind of a butte or escarpment, an old mine and the hint of a village on the extreme east side.

The notion I had was a US Cav detail to patrol into the valley, check out the mine, and return to the other side of the valley. Likewise the Syrians conduct a counter patrol from the ville on the east map edge to and from the valley and mine.

[Webwing]

Originally posted by Dirtweasle:

The last map I tried to do featured a dry creek in a shallow valley, a ridge on either side with a few hills, a kind of a butte or escarpment, an old mine and the hint of a village on the extreme east side.

The notion I had was a US Cav detail to patrol into the valley, check out the mine, and return to the other side of the valley. Likewise the Syrians conduct a counter patrol from the ville on the east map edge to and from the valley and mine.

10, 15 minutes at the most. Once you know what you are doing.

What takes most of the time(not included in the 15 min!) is balancing the forces and testing.

I'm not sure if this game and my capturing software work together well so I cant promise you anything. But if everything goes well it will be up soon.

Just dont complain about the download size of the file.

[76mm]

Originally posted by Sixxkiller:

[QB] Then you have someone attack MarkEzra for doing his damndest to improve CM's experience by having a site that hosts user created maps. I mean the guy disagrees with someone and provides a figure about a map having x ammount of downloads, and gets labasted for his trouble...

Excuse me, are you talking about me? I didn't "attack" MarkEzra "for doing his damndest to improve CM's experience by having a site..." I "attacked" him for putting too much emphasis on the fact that a single scenario seemed to enjoy any popularity among CM:SF players. Please explain how my post could possibly be interpreted otherwise?

[MarkEzra]

76mm I don't think so...and I certainly hope not. That quote is not Factual. ColumbusGamer runs www.CMMODS.com and all the CM communty owes him a huge debt of gratitude for his tireless efforts to maintain his outstanding site for all CM games.

[wunwinglow]

Originally posted by Dirtweasle:

The last map I tried to do featured a dry creek in a shallow valley, a ridge on either side with a few hills, a kind of a butte or escarpment, an old mine and the hint of a village on the extreme east side.

The notion I had was a US Cav detail to patrol into the valley, check out the mine, and return to the other side of the valley. Likewise the Syrians conduct a counter patrol from the ville on the east map edge to and from the valley and mine.

Flippin' 'eck, I thought!! CMSF has gone all Wild West on me! Wake up, Tim, it's SYRIANS, not SIOUX!

Sorry about that, must pay more attention....

Tim

[Guest]

First off: hey everybody!

All right.

Dale: I honestly think that's just how Sixx comes across on the boards. Since he obviously cares about the product, and he's committed to testing it, I think I personally am just gonna give him the benefit of the doubt and ignore what appears to be swagger.

Sixx: So 1.05 is sweet? I think we'd all be excited to hear more details. Maybe you could convince BFC to talk a bit about what's being fixed?

MarkEzra: Dude, I sincerely hope that EVERY scen is pulling out 2K downloads once 1.05 comes out. Here's hoping! Thanks for your hard work.

The scenario editor: Yeah, mildly time-consuming, but powerful.

In general, though, I just wanted to note, after reading through the thread, that everybody is here because they decided to spend the time to do it. Some people have committed more time than others, but I think our shared interests go beyond that consideration.

The beta testers are kicking ass trying to make a better game for us and are understandably attached to the thing. Some of us on the outside (me included) like the game but think that there's a WHOLE lotta ass that needs to be kicked to make the game "better" enough to be really, truly fun. Some of us wish the game were a different one that better suited our needs. I think we all have valid, but very different, viewpoints.

That's all just a long-winded way of saying that if we stop and listen to what everybody else is saying, and try to understand their point of view, we'll probably have a more productive discussion.

Cheers. Back to my impending software release.

[MarkEzra]

Thanks Phillip and well said

[C'Rogers]

I had a fairly angry post to make but it seems silly to do so after the calm tone used by Phillip.

Geez, great going, what is this a discussion board or something?

[dalem]

Originally posted by C'Rogers:

I had a fairly angry post to make but it seems silly to do so after the calm tone used by Phillip.

Geez, great going, what is this a discussion board or something?

That's just the kind of thing Hitler would have said.

-le dale

[hammelman]

You guys are too much, i read the board daily just to see you people get into it. Its like when i tried playing table top games and all the dorks wouldn't be able to finish any games cause they got so wrapped up in the rules. After the 5th or 6th time i said forget this, moving on.

Seriously kids, its a v-i-d-e-o g-a-m-e. If time truly equals money than all the time you spend on this board being pissed is actually costing you more than the original game did. Why not just close your eyes, put on some relaxing music, play some CMx1, and calmly wait for the inevitable patch? There that wasn't so hard was it.