Imperial Grunt Posted February 7, 2006 Author Share Posted February 7, 2006 Originally posted by civdiv: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by LtCol West: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by civdiv: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by LtCol West: Here are some pics of some American warriors with their Iraqi Army brothers-in-arms: US Army soldier US Marines US Army Strykers on patrol US Marines US Army soldiers (101st Airborne) Did you take any of these? </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperial Grunt Posted February 19, 2006 Author Share Posted February 19, 2006 Been away for awhile... Read through the other Marine oriented topic. Lots of "my service is better than your service crap". That stuff is both good and bad and no service is perfect. The Army and the Marines complement each other very well as ground combat forces. And each has its own strengths and weaknesses. I have served in combat with both Army and Marine infantry battalions and the bottom line is that both produce results and they are all fine Americans. Gasmask, you said you were with 2/2 in Mahmuhdiya, I guess with their S4 shop. Did you ever run across Maj Devito and his CA Marines? (His team chief was Sgt Carreon.) Maj Devito and I are long-time friends (we were both rifle platoon commanders with 3/5 back a few years). Semper Fi 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperial Grunt Posted February 20, 2006 Author Share Posted February 20, 2006 "quote:Originally posted by GasMask: I will say that everything is changing. Believe it or not, my infantry unit in Iraq took a bunch of non infantry Marines and made a Civil Affairs group, and started building playgrounds and shook hands and played with kids. It's very strange to think that Marines are being given this mission and as I do think it is needed, I also don't feel that it's the Marines job. Marines arn't designed to be nice and gentle. Sure it's a different world, and a different war, but I wander if this will be hurtful or helpful to the Corps. Only time will tell. [/QB] Creating a civil affairs unit sounds like a great idea. One of my continuing frustrations with my unit was its unwillingness to reorganize and cross-attach based on mission needs. The attitude was pretty much that every battery had to make due with what it had, regardless of the mission. Also, you bring up an interesting point, about whether or not this experience will be hurtful or helpful to the Marine Corps. As long as this war doesn't go for too much longer, and the Marines and the Army don't continue to hemmorage talented, potential careerists, the experience gained will be useful. According to a military history professor I had, the military faced this same conundrum in Vietnam: the units that were most successful in a counter-insurgency fight became so at the expense of their conventional war-fighting capabilities. However, the units he had in mind when saying this were literally living in villages and thus controlling terrain, and my experience in counter-insurgency was nothing like this -- we maintained a very conventional war-fighting mentality, despite the schools we fixed and soccer balls we handed out. One last point: it doesn't matter if Marines are supposed to be nice and gentle or not. The most important thing is that they do as they're told - if their superiors tell them that they need to be nice, then that's what they do. The ability to control violence in combat is crucial, and especially paramount in Iraq. Discipline is the primary thing that separates a military unit from a frenzied, armed mob. I am very proud of my soldiers for their amazing fire discipline -- never did we light up the whole neigborhood, or anything like that - as has no doubt has happened numerous times throughout OIF (and I've seen it). Even our most hard-charging, aggressive NCOs were absolutely disciplined in this regard. I forgot -- one more point: it's the military's job to complete the mission that it is given irregardless of its organizational expertise (or proclivities): the military serves the mission, not the other way around. " Actually the Marine Corps has had civil affairs units for awhile and the Corps in general was the first US military unit to practise civil affairs as a doctrinal way of winning a "small war". The Small Wars Manual, published in 1940, officially made all the experienced gained in the "Bannana Wars" in Haiti and other places where Marines operated in the 20's and 30's into a doctrine for such "police actions". During Vietnam, the Marine Corps utilized the Combined Action Program and Combined Action Platoons (CAP) to start pacifying villages, one at a time, with a Marine rifle squad and a platoon of local militia which where raised, trained, and operated out of the village. This program was one of the Marines most successful operations in the entire war. On a side note, the Marines and the Army in Vietnam were always clashing on what strategy should be used to win the war. The Army, under Generals like DuPoy and Westmorland, focused on attrition warfare tactics and massive firepower to cause the enemy to stop their effort due to the cost. General Cushman, USMC, pushed for an "inkblot strategy" which focused on securing towns and villages over time, removing the support structure for the VC. If a NVA regiment challanged a Marine unit, then battle would be pursued, but Cushman did not want Marine battalions just moving through the jungle and hills of I Corps looking for a dug-in, expertly camoflagued, well trained light infantry force. But that strategy did not produce alot of body count, nor was it very measurable, something that the metric-centric US Army does not like. Westmorland even accused some Marine units of poor performance because they did not conduct so many search and destroy missions in a given amount of time. (And the Army is still very metric-centric today). In hindsight, it is obivious that the North Vietnamese had a much higher threshold of national pain, casualites, and destruction than the US did, so Westmorland's strategy was flawed. It makes no sense to me to send in a battalion to go forward into the jungle and hills, away from any MSRs or other operational areas, to seek contact with a force that will avoid contact until they have prepared positions and favorable terrain, simply because they are there. Just let the NVA sit out there, find them with recon teams, and bomb the **** out of them (another USMC stratagy). But once the enemy comes out of the jungle and hills to seize some operational objective, then send in the battalions to annihlate them on Marine terms and not the enemy's. Hue is an example of this, although that battle started off by accident and not on purpose. But Hue is an example of the Marines getting the battle they wanted-a straight up fight. Marine Civil Affairs grew out of the CAP and have been in the Marine Corps Reserves for some time. The two Civil Affairs Groups focus on expeditionary civil affairs to support Marine operations and are good at tactical level effects to "win hearts and minds" (that term was coined by the Marines in Vietnam). Many see Civil Affairs as shaking hands and being nice to kids but it is much more complicated than that. It is more like "community oriented policing" and the key is to establish a network of contacts and to empower the "good guys" that are favorable to the military's strategy and to reduce the conditions that lend support to the enemy. It really is the only way to win an insurgency, and for that matter, the War on Terror. The Army as developed alot of CA units as well, but they are much more trained for nation building and other strategic level effects. Probably more info than anyone wanted to know and it has no impact on the game, but I just wanted to throw that out FYI. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffsmith Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 Bing West's book "The Village" about Marine CAP platoons is one of the best books I've read on Vietnam here is a web site on CAP's http://www.capmarine.com/ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nidan1 Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 Originally Posted by LtCol West: But once the enemy comes out of the jungle and hills to seize some operational objective, then send in the battalions to annihlate them on Marine terms and not the enemy's. Hue is an example of this, although that battle started off by accident and not on purpose. But Hue is an example of the Marines getting the battle they wanted-a straight up fight.Can you explain what you mean by "started off by accident" The North Vietnamese specifically selected Hue as a city to hold because of its traditional importance in the culture and politics of the Vietnamese people. The fact that the "General Uprising" never occurred forced the PAVN to stay in the city while the political cadres went about settling old scores and generally intimidating the poplulace. There was no way the Americans could allow a major city to be occupied in the such a way. A battle for Hue was inevitable once the PAVN started building defenses. The Marines were totally unprepared for a city fight at the time. Needless casualties were taken, until they finally got their act together. For example, the order not to use heavy artillery or air power inside the Citadel for fear of destroying sacred structures, caused the Marines casualties that might otherwise have been avoided if overwhelming firepower had been brought to bear immediately. PAVN leaders thought nothing of the destruction of Hue, but many a young American's life was cut short to protect the sensibilities of the Vietnamese. It could be seen as an interesting parallel to the practice of not targeting mosques until they are identified as having armed men in them. [ February 20, 2006, 01:07 PM: Message edited by: Nidan1 ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincere Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 The ability to control violence in combat is crucial, and especially paramount in Iraq. Discipline is the primary thing that separates a military unit from a frenzied, armed mob. I am very proud of my soldiers for their amazing fire discipline -- never did we light up the whole neigborhood, or anything like that - as has no doubt has happened numerous times throughout OIF (and I've seen it). Even our most hard-charging, aggressive NCOs were absolutely disciplined in this regard. It's good to hear points like this from people who appear to know what they are talking about. I'm a Brit who is fed up of other Brits spouting cliche's about lack of US fire discipline. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarquelne Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 Probably more info than anyone wanted to know Nope! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperial Grunt Posted February 21, 2006 Author Share Posted February 21, 2006 Originally posted by Nidan1: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Originally Posted by LtCol West: But once the enemy comes out of the jungle and hills to seize some operational objective, then send in the battalions to annihlate them on Marine terms and not the enemy's. Hue is an example of this, although that battle started off by accident and not on purpose. But Hue is an example of the Marines getting the battle they wanted-a straight up fight.Can you explain what you mean by "started off by accident" The North Vietnamese specifically selected Hue as a city to hold because of its traditional importance in the culture and politics of the Vietnamese people. The fact that the "General Uprising" never occurred forced the PAVN to stay in the city while the political cadres went about settling old scores and generally intimidating the poplulace. There was no way the Americans could allow a major city to be occupied in the such a way. A battle for Hue was inevitable once the PAVN started building defenses. The Marines were totally unprepared for a city fight at the time. Needless casualties were taken, until they finally got their act together. For example, the order not to use heavy artillery or air power inside the Citadel for fear of destroying sacred structures, caused the Marines casualties that might otherwise have been avoided if overwhelming firepower had been brought to bear immediately. PAVN leaders thought nothing of the destruction of Hue, but many a young American's life was cut short to protect the sensibilities of the Vietnamese. It could be seen as an interesting parallel to the practice of not targeting mosques until they are identified as having armed men in them. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperial Grunt Posted February 21, 2006 Author Share Posted February 21, 2006 Here is a pretty cool thing about Iwo Jima. Hopefully BF will make a WWII Pacific Theater game one day as well. Iwo Jima 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nidan1 Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 Read also "Fire in the Streets" by Eric Hammel. I hope so, the modern combat thing just isn't doing it for me for various reasons. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gyrene Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 Originally posted by Scott B: Love the hula girl on the Stryker. Scott Don't forget the piss bottle and what's probably a bottle full of dip spit right behind it. That brings up more memories than anything. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodent Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 I noticed that two. Obviously they haven't adopted the Israeli 52 litres of water a day regimen. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperial Grunt Posted March 3, 2006 Author Share Posted March 3, 2006 Here is an article dedicated about a friend of mine who was KIA in Haditha, Iraq. Red Cross Honors Fallen Marine with New Award Story by GySgt Julia L. Watson, 3RD CAG Camp Pendleton, CA -- (February 22, 2006)Jeanette was elegant and simple like most mothers would be when standing among black ties and fancy gowns. A hidden strength seemed to shine through her brown tear glazed eyes as her son’s accomplished life and sacrifices were relayed to a silent ballroom. She was beautiful and resolute with her son’s Marines in Blues by her side and his Police Chief, James T. Butts on her arm. The crowd rose to their feet and gave her a grand applause, an almost deafening applause that didn’t seem to end. Her son had become part of their families by giving of himself generously, now they were here to honor him. Her son’s friendship and love was immeasurable for those he revered as family. Her son’s family had spanned far past the home in which he grew up in, and farther than most could manage in a lifetime. Her son was Marine Corps Major Ricardo “Rick” Crocker, a law enforcement officer with the Santa Monica Police Department, and a key volunteer for the Santa Monica chapter of the Red Cross to name a few. As a friend and mentor for youth, Rick Crocker brought the communities he served closer together. Rick Crocker served as a Civil Affairs Team Leader when he deployed both with 3rd Civil Affairs Group during Operation Iraqi Freedom II, and when he volunteered for a second tour of duty with 5th CAG during OIF III. It was on May 26, 2005, during deployment with 5th CAG when Major Crocker died from a rocket propelled grenade explosion. Sergeant Raul Ramos, a member of Crocker’s team spoke of the selflessness of his leader when he said; “He had just finished boosting the moral of the Marines and Sailors before he died. He had wanted us to go home together, but if one were not to make it, he’d rather be the one to not come home.” By working with the community and provincial leaders of Iraq, Major Crocker helped the people communicate openly, and stimulate their economy to become self-sufficient and govern themselves. For his efforts and sacrifice in Iraq, he was recently approved for a Bronze Star Medal. Although Rick Crocker did not come home alive, his spirit and legacy of service did. It was his spirit of service, volunteerism and his ultimate sacrifice that caused the community and Red Cross of Santa Monica to select Rick for the Spirit of Volunteerism award. Bobby Schriver, of the Santa Monica City Council stated; “Rick Crocker had a tremendous empathy for people, which allowed him to establish a paved way for a free democratic society in Iraq. His impact was on everybody. To show Rick’s spirit they established a new award that will now be named after him. The fact that he is the first to bear this award makes it evident of the kind of guy he was.” It was apparent that Rick’s spirit of giving was present when the silent auction held that evening raised $15,000 in proceeds to benefit the Santa Monica Community Disaster Response Fund. At age 39 and a 10-year veteran with the Santa Monica Police Department, Rick was a genuine example of dedication and service to his community. “We wanted to honor Rick for his commitment and services that he provided,” commented Anna Keidrowski, the Development Associate of the Santa Monica Red Cross, “He volunteered much of his time working with the Red Cross, giving CPR and 1st Aid classes to many. The kids in the PAL program that he worked with loved him and looked up to him.” Rick had worked in depth with the Police Activities League (PAL), a program for disadvantaged youth. Many of the PAL youth showed their gratitude by being present during the ceremony. After the impassioned ovation, Jeanette Garcia received the award in her son’s behalf. She fought back tears to thank everyone for honoring her son, she continued, “As much as I miss my son, I know he died serving. Don’t forget we need to continue to fight to enjoy our freedoms. I hope when it’s my time, that I go doing what I love…and doing it with honor.” 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nidan1 Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 I hope this country never runs out of such men. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperial Grunt Posted March 3, 2006 Author Share Posted March 3, 2006 Originally posted by Nidan1: I hope this country never runs out of such men. It will not. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Cairns Posted March 5, 2006 Share Posted March 5, 2006 LtCol West, Could you perhaps explain the award of the bronze star. I found this on the net when I looked it up. "3-13. Bronze Star Medal a. The Bronze Star Medal was established by Executive Order 9419, 4 February 1944 (superseded by Executive Order 11046, 24 August 1962). b. The Bronze Star Medal is awarded to any person who, while serving in any capacity in or with the Army of the United States after 6 December 1941, distinguished himself or herself by heroic or meritorious achievement or service, not involving participation in aerial flight, in connection with military operations against an armed enemy; or while engaged in military operations involving conflict with an opposing armed force in which the United States is not a belligerent party. c. Awards may be made for acts of heroism, performed under circumstances described above, which are of lesser degree than required for the award of the Silver Star." He comes across as a good soldier and a nice guy, and I am sure he was a good cop and is dearly misse. However he didn't seem to do anything particularly heroic in combat, and his service other than combat doesn't seem to be anything that you would class above and beyond just doing his job all be it well. It seems to me to come pretty close to " He was a nice guy and he got killed so lets give him a medal". Peter. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperial Grunt Posted March 6, 2006 Author Share Posted March 6, 2006 Originally posted by Peter Cairns: LtCol West, Could you perhaps explain the award of the bronze star. I found this on the net when I looked it up. "3-13. Bronze Star Medal a. The Bronze Star Medal was established by Executive Order 9419, 4 February 1944 (superseded by Executive Order 11046, 24 August 1962). b. The Bronze Star Medal is awarded to any person who, while serving in any capacity in or with the Army of the United States after 6 December 1941, distinguished himself or herself by heroic or meritorious achievement or service, not involving participation in aerial flight, in connection with military operations against an armed enemy; or while engaged in military operations involving conflict with an opposing armed force in which the United States is not a belligerent party. c. Awards may be made for acts of heroism, performed under circumstances described above, which are of lesser degree than required for the award of the Silver Star." He comes across as a good soldier and a nice guy, and I am sure he was a good cop and is dearly misse. However he didn't seem to do anything particularly heroic in combat, and his service other than combat doesn't seem to be anything that you would class above and beyond just doing his job all be it well. It seems to me to come pretty close to " He was a nice guy and he got killed so lets give him a medal". Peter. Peter, with all due respect you have no idea what you are talking about. During his tours in Iraq, he and his team were involved in many firefights. He was killed in the opening moments of a large firefight that lasted the entire afternoon and into the night. He was meeting with a village shiek when the attack occured and he quickly went forward to see what the situation was. Then the rocket hit him. A Marine tactical civil affairs team actually gets into more action than an infantry platoon over the course of an average tour, simply because the team has to be out in the villages and streets virtually everyday to do its mission of interfacing with the local civil population to support the military mission. He was very successful as his mission, both working with the local Iraqi leadership and dealing with insurgents when they found them. He definetly rated the bronzestar medal and would have probably been awarded it upon completion of his tour had he not been KIA. The above article was about the Red Cross award he recieved so it did not detail his military actions. The Marine Corps does not hand out medals and if you compare the number of bronze star medals and other awards to those issued by the other US services you would see that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Cairns Posted March 6, 2006 Share Posted March 6, 2006 LtCol West, The key phrase is "heroic or meritorious achievement or service", You can't have it both ways John, if what he was doing merited a Bronze Star, then most people doing his job should be getting them, and they should be awarding them by the bucket load as people come home from tours, and if he got it for a particular act of bravery then tell us what it was. I have no doubt he was a good and professional soldier, but from the perspective of the UK armed forces you don't get a decoration of that calibre for doing your job well, it's only for acts above and beyond the call of duty. I'd put a bet on the fact that there are hundreds of ex marines who served in the Pacific and Korea who saw a lot more combat and faced a lot more danger who hardly got a pat on the back let alone a bronze star. Peter. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperial Grunt Posted March 6, 2006 Author Share Posted March 6, 2006 Peter, I do not have the exact award citation or the summary of action that justified it. Lets just say that his commander at least saw that he was performing meritoriously and therefore put him in for the award. But I am willing to say that he did many things heroically as well. As far as the Pacific and Korea goes, you are probably right. Especially during WWII, very few awards were given out. Staying alive was pretty much an award in itself. As far as the UK military goes, whatever. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Cairns Posted March 6, 2006 Share Posted March 6, 2006 LtCol West, Fair enough, if there is more the guy done than the post, and he had shown exceptional leadership in the eyes of his superiors over aperiod of time, then you can make a case. I just have a thing about awards that used to mean something special being lessened over time. We get it in the Press in the UK all the tim. They talk about "our Boys being heros", before they have even got on the plane to Iraq. In addition I think we should always be watchfull for political pressure to create "heros" when a war gets unpopular back home. I am not saying thats what happened in this case, but if you look at previous conflicts like the germans in the latter part of WW2, you can see that when moral at home is flagging It's suddenly easier to get a medal. Oh and as they said in Britain during the war about the purple heart... " America is the only country in the world that gives out medals for ripping your arse on barbed wire". Peter. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John D Salt Posted March 6, 2006 Share Posted March 6, 2006 Originally posted by Peter Cairns: The key phrase is "heroic or meritorious achievement or service", Just so. Please note the logical disjunction. Originally posted by Peter Cairns: I have no doubt he was a good and professional soldier, but from the perspective of the UK armed forces you don't get a decoration of that calibre for doing your job well, it's only for acts above and beyond the call of duty. The US system of honors is not merely spelt differently from what we do in the UK, it actually is different. The Bronze Star Medal is one of several cases where the US grants a medal for heroic or meritorious conduct. As we don't know whether the valor device ("combat V") was awarded with Major Crocker's medal, which would be an award for heroic conduct, or without, which would be for meritorious conduct. Since Colonel West evidently knows the character of his late friend, I am entirely happy to accept his evaluation of the man, and I think it would be churlish to question it. It is certainly true that in the British armed forces, since WW1, the most prestigious medals are those awarded for acts of bravery. However, the is a great variety of other awards available for military personnel. Campaign and long service medals or stripes are still awarded just for showing up, or for "X years of undetected crime". Wounds used to be recognised by the wound stripe, equivalent of the US Purple Heart, but no longer are in the British armed forces since 1922. The category of "meritorious" service is largely covered by the British civil honours system (the DSO has since WW1 I think been awarded entirely for bravery rather than any other kind of distinguished service). The MBE and OBE have military divisions, and you will often see these letters appended to the names of soldiers who have served in peace support rather than shooting wars; and knighthoods are awarded to senior military figures just as they are to distinguished civil servants, insustrialists, or actors. AIUI, the Bronze Star Medal can be awarded both as a gallantry decoration, as might be an MC or a mention in dipatches, or for meritorious service, as would be an OBE or MBE (military division). I have no doubt that achievements comparable with Major Crocker's would be recognised by some kind of award were they performed by members of the British forces. Originally posted by Peter Cairns: I'd put a bet on the fact that there are hundreds of ex marines who served in the Pacific and Korea who saw a lot more combat and faced a lot more danger who hardly got a pat on the back let alone a bronze star. If wikipedia is to be believed, you'd lose that bet. The entry for "Bronze Star Medal" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Star_Medal says that Bronze Star medals were awarded retrospectively to holders of the CIB or CMB from WW2. All the best, John. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nidan1 Posted March 6, 2006 Share Posted March 6, 2006 Marines during WWII did not receive the CIB, it was awarded to US Army personnel only, and denoted time spent in combat or under enemy fire. Navy and USMC personnel did not have such a decoration until the institution of the Combat Action Ribbon (above) ,which is sort of the Jar Head equivilant of the CIB, (but not as cool looking on a uniform). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John D Salt Posted March 6, 2006 Share Posted March 6, 2006 Originally posted by Nidan1: Marines during WWII did not receive the CIB, it was awarded to US Army personnel only, and denoted time spent in combat or under enemy fire. Navy and USMC personnel did not have such a decoration until the institution of the Combat Action Ribbon (above) ,which is sort of the Jar Head equivilant of the CIB, (but not as cool looking on a uniform). Many thanks for the correction. Even though it's always a shame to see a Scotsman keep his money. Apologies to Col. West and other Marines for confusing them with the US Army. All the best, John. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted March 6, 2006 Share Posted March 6, 2006 At the end of the war, I thought also that the 101st Airborne handed out Bronze Stars liberally to Normandy vets so that they could boost their rotation point totals? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Cairns Posted March 6, 2006 Share Posted March 6, 2006 Well, I fluked that one by the skin of my teeth. Peter. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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