Shock Force suggestions thread

[flyinj]

I've played about five battles at this point. I don't understand why the developer thinks that the current camera system is sufficient for what the game demands from the user.

Why is the WASD camera so janky? I want to hold down the right mouse button to look around the battlefield while panning the camera smoothly along the XY plane with WASD.

As the system currently works, I can look around with severe mouselag by holding down the right button. If I want to scroll the camera around the XY plane, it's constantly jumping and stalling as I hold the key in the direction I want to scroll in. Holding down the left mouse button while moving the mouse gives the smoothest panning of the viepoint... but I want to rotate and pitch the camera view at the same time. It's almost a regression into how people played Doom when they first encountered 3D. They could rotate the camera anywhere they wanted to, but they had to hold down the right button if they wanted to "strafe" the camera laterally left or right.

Give us 1:1 "mouselook" while holding down the right mousebutton - with no "smoothing" (lag) of the mouse movements. And make the "WASD" react in a consistent manner (I hold the key down, it moves at a constant rate).

EDIT: Please don't write this off by saying this is a request of a "hyperactive RTS g4m3r n00b". I've been playing computer strategy games since Kampfgruppe on the Apple ][+ (and then through Panzer Strike and it's modern adaptation Overrun. I've been through my share of bad UIs) I loved the previous Combat Mission games, as well as the latest Steel Panthers releases.

Please give us smooth WASD camera control.

Thank you.

[ July 28, 2007, 05:01 AM: Message edited by: flyinj ]

[flyinj]

After playing a bit more, I have one more suggestion:

Give us the option to put "pause game" on the spacebar. I initially thought the hotkey "pause" meant "pause game". I was dismayed to find it meaning "pause unit orders".

[scottie]

ww2 module ..... i know i know its coming shut up scott

[Exel]

Originally posted by flyinj:

After playing a bit more, I have one more suggestion:

Give us the option to put "pause game" on the spacebar. I initially thought the hotkey "pause" meant "pause game". I was dismayed to find it meaning "pause unit orders".

Hit ESC.

[athkatla]

Originally posted by metalbrew:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sergei:

You see, it's not CMx1. That's been Moon's favourite phrase for the last year or so, so I'm sorry if you've heard it before. The point being, the game executes in real time regardless of whether you choose RT or WeGo; hence the CMx1 type "wait fifteen minutes and then skip the replay" WeGo mode just isn't possible.

I guess only Charles would know if acceleration or anything like that would be feasible. But I wouldn't hold my breath on it, because my brain would run out of oxygen in five minutes.

This is 100% a suggestion thread. Pull back on the rah-rah rabid fanboi crap and let people post their thoughts. Blah blah blah this isn't CMx1 blah blah blah. Well guess what? CMx1 was 10x the game that this is turning out to be. I've played the game for about 8 hours and there is marked de-evolution of UI usability.

I'm trying really really hard to like the game, but it's clunky. It's very clunky. So please spare us the "it's not CMx1" red herring BS, because it is BS. This patronizing fanboi crap get's pretty old. </font>

[flyinj]

Originally posted by Exel:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by flyinj:

After playing a bit more, I have one more suggestion:

Give us the option to put "pause game" on the spacebar. I initially thought the hotkey "pause" meant "pause game". I was dismayed to find it meaning "pause unit orders".

Hit ESC. </font>

[Childress]

Originally posted by flyinj:

I can look around with severe mouselag....

I had the mouse lag problem till I switched out my laser mouse for an ordinary optical one.

[Moon]

Just wanted to chime in here real quick to make sure it stays civil... and then also say that: we appreciate suggestions, and we appreciate reports on first impressions, too. But please understand that suggestions coming in within a few hours of playing the game are much more useful as the latter, and much less useful as the former.

Still useful because we want to obviously make sure that people get into the game without a too steep learning curve etc. but much less useful than suggestions that come in a week or a month, after the various elements, features and nuances that are IN the game ALREADY are learned and understood.

But don't let me interrupt you. This one was still the first thread I opened after waking up this morning so go on...!

Martin

[Exel]

Originally posted by Moon:

we appreciate suggestions, and we appreciate reports on first impressions, too. But please understand that suggestions coming in within a few hours of playing the game are much more useful as the latter, and much less useful as the former.

While I agree generally, there are still some things that you don't need to play hundreds of hours for you to spot faulty or in need of improvement. Don't disregard all suggestions just because they come "too soon".

[Moon]

I didn't mean to say that we disregard them, not at all! In fact, I didn't even want to discourage them (well, maybe a little, at least those that start with "I miss X or Y from CMx1..."). Some are definitely very good, and we're already collecting for 1.02

Martin

[bartleby]

After a bit of play I thought of a couple tweaks that might help playability. I'm having a blast so far, but these would help even more.

--Changing the "tab" behaviour to a lower height or angle so that the selected unit is initially visible. Currently I have to pan down and it can be a little confusing.

--Adding a key to toggle between formations and another to toggle within them. This would be a real time-saver in real-time mode to quickly see the disposition of your units and issue orders.

--Tweaking pathfinding for MOUT. Currently it can be hard to tell which door your soldiers will enter. If there was some way to either show what side they were headed for or select more explicitly their entry point it would help.

--I would rethink the way hotkeys work now. Instead of having certain keys repeated depending on which control panel you have open, I would (at least for the important ones like target and movement) have them independent and usable at any time. It also might be useful to have four set keys corresponding between the four tabs instead of toggling through them.

--Actually, now that I think of it, have you considered an option to use the numpad to issue commands? The 3x3 layout is perfect for it and with a little practice it could be quite fast. Just a thought.

--A mouselook option for camera control. I know it's been mentioned, but it would be huge.

--LOD control. Another one that's been said, but it should be scalable.

[Andrew H.]

Originally posted by MrSpkr:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sergei:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by metalbrew:

I'm aware that I can quick-out of the video the second time. It doesn't really change my opinion of it's usefulness though.

But what is your suggestion? Keep in mind that the first time it plays out the orders in real time (unlike CMx1 where the turn was first processed and then replayed). The second time it replays that. Are you suggesting that there shouldn't be a replay starting automatically, or even that there simply shouldn't be a replay? Or are you suggesting that when the minute is played out in real time, that should be hidden from the player? Or maybe something else? </font>

[sage2]

Bugs / Issues:

1) Please for the love of gawd and all things holy fix in the Moire you get on the Stryker slat armor. It drives be batty. This should be doable easily by changing the LOD models to just use an alpha'd plane in place of the slat armor at longer rangs.

2) Allow LOD to be adjustable, or to turn it off.

3) Please, please add some sort of AI for the quick battles! Essentially, this feature is completely broken in SP mode.

4) LOS appears to be broken. I've seen various weirdness. Most recently, I had an MG team behind a hill take casualties from a Bradley. Shortly later another MG team show enemy infantry through another hill. It's weird -- most of the bullets (99.9%) get stopped, but then all the sudden, you'l see a random tracer go through the hill. I also find it odd that the AI units will blast away at the hillside with tons of ammo as if they know one shot might makei though.

5) Have a toggle for shadow types? I have an ATI x1900xt w/ the most recent drivers, but I have all sorts of weidness in the shadows. One that bugs me is that grass sprites are not shadowed. This just looks weird.

6) Have a toggle to turn off grass sprites?

7) Playing the first training campaign mission, one of my strykers insisted on only every pointing it's butt at the enemy.

I've played through 4 or 5 missions so far. My reaction is pretty mixed. I'm sure I will play more, but the game just doesn't feel done.

[Tofke]

Battlefront staff,

is it possible to inserting "reverse mouse" option for the scroll-whell in the next patch plz ?

[PseudoSimonds]

Originally posted by bartleby:

--Actually, now that I think of it, have you considered an option to use the numpad to issue commands? The 3x3 layout is perfect for it and with a little practice it could be quite fast. Just a thought.

Have you tried it? You can issue commands with the numpad and cycle through the command panels with '/' and '*' (not sure if the cycling is default, if not you can remap those hotkeys from 't' and 'y'). That's how I play and prefer it to fumbling for hotkeys on the keyboard.

[Childress]

--Changing the "tab" behaviour to a lower height or angle so that the selected unit is initially visible. Currently I have to pan down and it can be a little confusing.[/QB]

Second this suggestion!

[bartleby]

Originally posted by PseudoSimonds:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by bartleby:

--Actually, now that I think of it, have you considered an option to use the numpad to issue commands? The 3x3 layout is perfect for it and with a little practice it could be quite fast. Just a thought.

Have you tried it? You can issue commands with the numpad and cycle through the command panels with '/' and '*' (not sure if the cycling is default, if not you can remap those hotkeys from 't' and 'y'). That's how I play and prefer it to fumbling for hotkeys on the keyboard. </font>

[vulture]

Originally posted by Exel:

Make the left-click drag the map instead of pushing the camera. In other words, invert the mouse axis.

When you click the map and drag it right, the map should move to the right, not to the left. That's the standard interface everywhere, from your Acrobat Reader to military C3 applications. The way it works now is just counter-intuitive.

Horse for courses. I find it intuitive, and would find your version rather confusing I imagine. Make it another configurable option (Can't imagine it's going to be *that* high on the to do list though).

Some more observatios, based purely on the demo so far.

I'd like to see the ability to show all moves, arcs and targets too. I always found that vital to get an idea of what my forces are doing overall, particularly in larger battles.

I was expecting the M, C, A and S keys to pull up the relevant command tabs. It would be much easier if they did.

The 'deploy' command produced some bizarre results for me. I got the MMG team out of a stryker, gave them a move order and a covered arc. The following turn while they were moving I added a deploy weapon order, thinking that this would happen at the end of the move This seemed to get the MMG setting up where they were, while the other two team members wandered off on the move order. The covered arc for the unit seemed to be based at the point where I gave it and not move with them (although in other cases it did move with squads and vehicles). Plenty more bizarre behaviour followed for this poor MMG crew (the 2 man crew eventually moved up to where the rest of the team were, but when I pressed deploy again (lost track of whether or not the weapon was actually deployed at this point) then started off back to where they had been before - they apparently set it up and left it there... )

These are just minor interface issues - the effects of putting a chain of orders together didn't work how I expected, but that's probably more to do with my not understanding the interface that well than anything else.

On the suggestion front (for the distant future) for scenario desginers: how feasible is it to have a 'debug' playing mode to test the AI scripting. I'm thinking of something along the lines of being able to see all units all the time and being able to e.g randomly place 'human' units on the map to do things like test how the AI behave when spotting units or taking fire at various points, and to better be able to debug timings and paths and the like.

[bartleby]

Oh, one more thing I thought of: K is used for a couple important things, but if you accidentally select "bail out" and then cancel the order, the crew will still dismount. This is really a pain if you're under small arms fire, say, and the crew jumps out of their nice steel box into it. Hopefully this can be altered.

[Exel]

Originally posted by vulture:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Exel:

Make the left-click drag the map instead of pushing the camera. In other words, invert the mouse axis.

When you click the map and drag it right, the map should move to the right, not to the left. That's the standard interface everywhere, from your Acrobat Reader to military C3 applications. The way it works now is just counter-intuitive.

Horse for courses. I find it intuitive, and would find your version rather confusing I imagine. Make it another configurable option

</font>

[Tauschitz]

Add TCP/IP WEGO in a patch! PLEASE!

[vulture]

Originally posted by Exel:

]Grab a piece of paper. Move your hand to the right. Does the paper move to the left? Of course not, because you are dragging it right with your hand.

If your view it as grabbing the map and moving it around, then yes, that would be more intuitive. But if your mental image of what is going on is that you are controlling a camera, not a map, then the opposite is true. It's all a question of which mental picture you happen to default to.

[gstelmack]

My primary issue revolves around giving orders. I agree that the current hotkey setup is very counterintuitive, and I'm constantly giving the wrong orders (and find myself forcing myself to look down at the command bar and click rather than using the hotkeys because of it). I'd like to see 3 changes:

1) Different hotkeys for each order, period. I'll get used to them over the time, with the command bar at the bottom my learning tool. The tabs should be so you can fit them in the UI, not to reduce the number of keys used. I'll look into customizing in the text file, but this should really be the default and not require customization.

2) Use keyboard modifiers instead of mouse buttons for camera panning / movement. CTRL / SHIFT instead of left/right. As suggested earlier in the thread. The key reason for this is to allow:

3) Bring back my right-click context menu for giving orders, please. This would help fix #1 as well. I really miss this from CM1, and it made it easy to do the movement / facing thing. It would also mean I would stop forgetting to right-click while placing movement points, thus entering a waypoint I really didn't want and screwing up all my orders.

Giving orders needs to be more intuitive than it is right now. I saw your comment about "early impressions", but keep in mind that new customers will start with the demo and these early impressions are CRITICAL for expanding your user base. You'll have a bunch of people running into these UI issues being talked about here and deciding to buy something else rather than invest the time to learn this.

Oh, I forgot suggestion 4:

4) Scrollbars in the shell UI, please. It's the 21st century, why am I paging through order text and scenario lists? And the mouse wheel should do this stepping as well.

[Lawndart]

I would suggest strongly making it easier to get into... I'm really excited to play it, but not spending so much time learning it. I'm really not being lazy here its just life has caught up to me in recent years... And there are no other comparable games to ease the learning curve so it's truly all new... I can only imagine what its like to anyone who never played a CM game.

Also, progressive stat tracking of some sort. Currently there is really no personal interest in my troops, I don't really feel any attachment at all... Something simple like flight sim pilot roster and medal box would be sweet.

So, I think there a real gem here but it's lacking the personal attachment...

After a weeks worth of great bathroom reading I'll be ready (competently) to play this for real...

Oh, and someone hear my prayers… I would love to see a truly dynamic campaign… Ala Falcon 4… not sure if many know but Louie planned to include a ground sim for it since the beginning… so far ahead of its time…

[Percopius]

Bartlbey, have you played the game?

--Adding a key to toggle between formations and another to toggle within them. This would be a real time-saver in real-time mode to quickly see the disposition of your units and issue orders.

A: = and - keys toggle through formations

--I would rethink the way hotkeys work now. Instead of having certain keys repeated depending on which control panel you have open, I would (at least for the important ones like target and movement) have them independent and usable at any time. It also might be useful to have four set keys corresponding between the four tabs instead of toggling through them.

A: You can do that already. I think its B N and P ( not including T and Y that toggles up and down thought the list). TARGET, FACE, PAUSE, and many more commands are allways availible on hotkeys. Look at the Hot Key List from the Menu Button in game.

--Actually, now that I think of it, have you considered an option to use the numpad to issue commands? The 3x3 layout is perfect for it and with a little practice it could be quite fast. Just a thought.

A: It was there, it waas moved to where it is now to be closer to your left hand reasting on the WADS.

--A mouselook option for camera control. I know it's been mentioned, but it would be huge.

A: Hold the Right Mouse Button and you have mouse look.

--LOD control. Another one that's been said, but it should be scalable.

A: You can change the model detail in game with the { and } keys.

How about everybody playing the game for a day or two?