Bruce70 Posted October 3, 2005 Share Posted October 3, 2005 The way the mini-campaigns are described (e.g. story driven) makes me wonder if they we will be single player only. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted October 3, 2005 Share Posted October 3, 2005 Yes, campagins in the first release of CMx2 will be single player only (*ducks to avoid flying objects*). Story driven campaigns are the best way to inject the sort of excitement and "sense of a campaign" tht CMx1 was incapable of producing. Such campaigns have in fact been one of the longest running, most consistent request we've had since before CMBO was even released. We're pretty sure we have the design tht most people have been longing for. Can't say for sure until you tell us The problem with story driven campaigns is that if you try to balance things out, to make it interesting for both sides, the battles all tend to seem similar. With a single player only option the story can be far more interesting and dynamic. The non-player side might have a single sniper and some mines, for example. Horrible experience for a Human player to command tht side, but the AI doesn't mind at all And from the other side, it could possibly be one of the most challenging scenarios that the player has ever experienced, even though he's not facing a dozen tanks an a battalion of enemy troops. So to NOT have the option to do something like this, simply to make sure the opposing side isn't bored to tears, is just not an option. Which is why most story driven campaigns are single player only, even for otherwise multi-player games. Will we allow for multiplayer campaigns at a later date? Perhaps, but for the first title the answer is as above... no. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flammenwerfer Posted October 3, 2005 Share Posted October 3, 2005 Will we be able to create single player campaigns in the editor? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted October 3, 2005 Share Posted October 3, 2005 We'll have to see. If so... it won't be exactly pretty Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Balaban Posted October 3, 2005 Share Posted October 3, 2005 :eek: :eek: :eek: I just dropped my hot coffee no multiplayer campaigns :confused: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Znarf Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 Originally posted by Battlefront.com: We'll have to see. If so... it won't be exactly pretty Steve Don't worry, we'll figure it out! If you give us even the most minimal tools, we'll find a way. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce70 Posted October 4, 2005 Author Share Posted October 4, 2005 While we're on the subject... By mini-campaign, I imagine you mean something on the scale of the campaign in CC2 (you know, the one before the series went down the drain), or perhaps one thread of that campaign. Is that about right or am I way off the mark? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 I'd imagine it to mean a series of custom-made scenarios, like the campaigns in Steel Panthers (not the long campaign). While the system of Close Combats I-III was more akin to CM's Operations. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 Custom scenarios, linked together with units passing from one scenario to another (or not, depending). That's what we're going for. There is a certain degree of dynamic flow, based on battle outcome, but not dynamic in the sense that they are created on the fly. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalem Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 Originally posted by Battlefront.com: Will we allow for multiplayer campaigns at a later date? Perhaps, but for the first title the answer is as above... no. Steve I still think the best campaign ever was the "A Day in the Cavalry" one on the original CM:BO CD. And it was perfect for solo play. -dale 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce70 Posted October 4, 2005 Author Share Posted October 4, 2005 Originally posted by Sergei: I'd imagine it to mean a series of custom-made scenarios, like the campaigns in Steel Panthers (not the long campaign). While the system of Close Combats I-III was more akin to CM's Operations. I would have said that CC was more like a series of CM Ops, but I get the picture. On the subject of pictures... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 Ok. Pictures you want, pictures you'll get. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steiner14 Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 After the initial disapointment, i think this isn't really a bad solution for the customer: In CMx1 times, usually even single battles need to be balanced, for both sides enjoying it. Unbalanced (but maybe historically) campaigns usually cause huge frustration on the weaker side. The (planned?) asymetric vitory conditions could really shine on this aspect, but i guess much more experience (and user feedback) with them could be needed, before integrating them into really working multiplayer campaigns. So for me it is fine, if the first release will not offer multiplayer campaigns, since i prefer well working functionality, over feature overkill. Steve wrote: With a single player only option the story can be far more interesting and dynamic. The non-player side might have a single sniper and some mines, for example.This is really good news. I interpret it as the beginning of saying goodbye to the philosophy of always and everywhere balanced battles. So with CMx2 we will not only get a much better engine, we obviously can expect a whole new dimension of battle-variety. Super. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 So with CMx2 we will not only get a much better engine, we obviously can expect a whole new dimension of battle-variety. Super.Exactly Won't necessarily be fun for one side, but those types of scenarios will most likely be the easiest for the AI to handle. My example of the single sniper and mines shows that. The AI in CMx1 could handle that pretty well! It's just that the game sytem of CMx1 couldn't handle such a scenario. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steiner14 Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 Cool. Regarding battle-variety: don't forget that the little symbols in CMx1 about the battle type in the left lower corner, give way to much information away... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Balaban Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 Originally posted by Battlefront.com: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />So with CMx2 we will not only get a much better engine, we obviously can expect a whole new dimension of battle-variety. Super.Exactly Won't necessarily be fun for one side, but those types of scenarios will most likely be the easiest for the AI to handle. My example of the single sniper and mines shows that. The AI in CMx1 could handle that pretty well! It's just that the game sytem of CMx1 couldn't handle such a scenario. Steve </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted October 5, 2005 Share Posted October 5, 2005 Within a game? Even the CMx1 AI changed its behavior based on how the battle was going. So yes, within a game expect that, and perhaps more, from the CMx2 AI. From game to game? No. That would require a learning AI and we don't have any time to make such a thing work right. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V Posted October 5, 2005 Share Posted October 5, 2005 Sounds great... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Balaban Posted October 5, 2005 Share Posted October 5, 2005 Originally posted by Battlefront.com: Within a game? Even the CMx1 AI changed its behavior based on how the battle was going. So yes, within a game expect that, and perhaps more, from the CMx2 AI. From game to game? No. That would require a learning AI and we don't have any time to make such a thing work right. Steve Good move. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce70 Posted October 6, 2005 Author Share Posted October 6, 2005 Even if you used a learning AI, I really don't think it makes much sense to have it continue learning in the release build - you never know what they will learn, they can be tricky beasts. Two examples: One is the classic case of tank recognition software that scored 100% accuracy on distinguishing Russian and US tanks. How did it do it? It checked 3 pixels in the bottom right hand corner of the picture, if they were white (snow) it guessed Russian; if they were anything else it guessed US. Second example is an experiment by my PhD supervisor to get a robot to follow a line. It learned a straight line fairly easily, but when it came to a corner it found that it could do better by backing up and doing the straight section again. In both cases the learned behavior was correct for that data provided, but the result was completely unexpected. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
undead reindeer cavalry Posted October 6, 2005 Share Posted October 6, 2005 wasn't there a hint that in CMx2 you might be able to export or import combat result data? if so, users could make their own multiplayer campaign engines. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted October 7, 2005 Share Posted October 7, 2005 There is no plan to support importing/exporting data for meta campaign type systems. This doesn't mean it won't happen, just that we currently don't see doing it for the first release. If we we want to allow user created campaigns there are easier ways to do that. Same if we want to allow multi-player user campaigns. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
76mm Posted October 7, 2005 Share Posted October 7, 2005 Dear Steve: I understand if data import/export doesn't make it into the first release, but please keep it on the short list of items for follow-on releases--it seems to have been one of (if not the most) popular requests on the CMx2 "wish list". And could you specify what other easier means you have in mind for allowing user-created campaigns? TMR 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted October 7, 2005 Share Posted October 7, 2005 Originally posted by 76mm: And could you specify what other easier means you have in mind for allowing user-created campaigns? TMR 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted October 7, 2005 Share Posted October 7, 2005 Yes, it is on the list for sure. We are not planning on making a campaign editor. The means of making a campaign are instead text based and precompiled. If we decided to allow other people to make campaigns we could build a small tool that would take a user created text file, purge it of boo-boos, then spit out a campaign file. This same process could be used to allow for two player support. Honestly, I hope we do support user made campaigns. And if we do, I don't see why we should purposefully block them from being two player. It's just this support won't be a part of the actual release and I don't know when we might get to making the tool and writing up the documentation. That's not for me to decide Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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