Random Maps

[MiB]

Are randomly generated maps in quickbattles ever going to come back in?

If so, how far down the totem pole is it?

I understand that there are bigger issues on the spoke, but I'm not too interested in the campaign, quick battles from CMx1 were the real seller of this game to me, and I'm stuck without what I thought I was gonna get

I'd just like to know.

[Guest]

Man, decent random maps are a "hard" problem that scales up steeply as you add features. There's hundreds of different features and elevations in CM:SF, some of which are mutually exclusive... and some which aren't.

I wouldn't necessarily want to write a map generator for CM:SF, and I actually *enjoy* that sort of thing.

I'm interested in the answer, too, but my guess is "probably never unless we suddenly are gifted with another programmer for six months for free and there's nothing important on our plates".

[MiB]

Man, that'd be a complete bummer for me.

[Guest]

Well, I could certainly be wrong. Considering the time and effort it takes to get even a decent "simple" map generator to produce pretty consistent maps, though, I would imagine they'd stay clear unless the right conditions arose.

I did just finish one off last week, however, so it's possible that the pain is still too fresh and I'm not thinking clearly.

[Mord]

From what I remember it's not gonna happen...just way to hard with this new editor, which is understandable. The difference in power between the CMX1 map editor and CMX2 is like is staggering.

Give it some time and there'll be plenty of QB maps out there for DL.

Mord.

[MarkEzra]

Originally posted by MiB:

Man, that'd be a complete bummer for me.

Any CM:SF map can be used as a QB map All you need to do is dump the scen file into the QB file The QB map "selector", if you will, chooses the map based on your request...Hills town, village, battle type, ect. Obviously the more maps you put in the more Random maps you have to choose from. Not so far off from a Random map generator. Naturally all user made maps can be used as well. CMMODS is building their inventory. I believe that player made maps are generally MUCH better than a computer generated maps. As proof I site any generated map from any CMx1 game.... I say that with all the affection of one who loves a QB

[MiB]

I really loved the quick battle maps on CMx1, actually.

I suppose I'll go through CMMODS and look for their stuff. Thanks.

[Battlefront.com]

We do hope to find some compromise between hand built maps and randomly generated maps. As we said, it is impractical for us to make a random map generator that would be worth a damned. The point of diminishing returns on that coding venture would be reached very quickly and we'd just be wasting time on it.

The idea we have, and it is just that and will remain just that for months, is to have randomly connected "meta tiles". Players create "meta tiles" and CM assembles them together to create unique maps each time. In theory this will work, but we haven't any idea what it will take to code such a feature. It could be equally impractical to fully randomized maps.

We shall see!

Steve

[MiB]

Thank you Steve. And thanks for all the quick updates you've given us, both in terms of patches and keeping us on the forums up to date.

[Guest]

Seriously.

Also, more the pessimist me, apparently.

[kevinkins]

Interesting ...sounds a bit like geomorphic maps from board gaming ie user created tiles that are put together. If done right the "random" maps could turn out really nice given the potential art skills devoted toward the "tiles".

[Battlefront.com]

Yes, it certainly isn't a unique idea. It's akin to the old boardgames, like PanzerBlitz for example, where you got a bunch of boards and you could mix and match them to at least keep the terrain a bit varried. The idea we have is more flexible and far reaching than that (i.e. you don't get 6 boards to choose from!), but conceptually it is quite similar.

The number one problem with CMx1 maps were buildings. Trying to have CM generate sensible urban terrain was really a stretch. Now imagine that with all the tons of urban choices in CMx2! Defeated before we even start Therefore, offloading this onto gamers is a sensible thing. We make a few rules, have some things programmed into the maps so CM can make sense of them, and (theoretically) the rest is fairly easy. We'll see how it goes when we start working on it. Personally, I think we can manage something like this, even if it isn't as far reaching as I picture in my head.

Steve

[Mord]

Originally posted by Phillip Culliton:

Seriously.

Also, more the pessimist me, apparently.

LOL Amen...I didn't see Steve's answer coming in a million years...last I remember it was a "no way"...interesting news.

Mord.

[Battlefront.com]

Mord,

The old CMx1 way is "no way", but we don't like limitations so we THINK the "Meta Tile" system is a way around the problem. But perhaps not! We'll have to see.

Steve

[Mord]

It's an interesting concept. I will be excited to see if can be done. Add in the ability to tweak the map after the fact and it would be damned perfect.

Mord.

[kevinkins]

Tweaking the assembled map is a great idea if it can be programed. Then there would be endless

possibilities.

Kevin

[TheVulture]

Actually, just for kicks I am trying to write a random map generator for CM:SF (and I assume it is theoretically possible to make it stick the output in the same format as scenario files, just as soon as someone deconstructs those to know how to represent the maps and AI plans in a file). But I'm doing it for fun, whilst holding down a full time job, looking after small children, and whatnot (and looking for a new job...) so there is no guarantee I'm going to get it working any time before 2015.

Oddly enough the approach I'm taking is essentially to divide the map into small 'tiles' of specific types (row of houses, compound, street, forest, park etc.) There are several layers of tiles - for example an 800m x 800m map may be divided into 4 tiles (not necessarily square ones) that could be 'forest', 'open' and 2x'city (low density)'. Then each tile is divided into further sub-tiles, the possibilities for each depending on what its parent tile type is. Rinse and repeat until you are at a small enough level that writing a map-building algorithm for the lowets level tiles is possible (tile is 40m x 40m, has road connections to other tiles here and here, and is high density housing, for example. Or maybe mosque complex. Or small park in the city). Or maybe just use hand-designed tiles for some of the more complex urban tiles, like is being discussed above in the thread.

Now as to how well it will work, and whether I can design some very basic algorithms to chose setup zones (preferably out of LoS of each other) and something resembling an AI plan that works....

[Paul AU]

"We shall see!"

We will.

CMx1 was never 'finished'. It was the best WWII game I've ever seen, half-finished.

CMx2... Wait... (see above)

The best half-baked games I've seen.

[ September 06, 2007, 06:28 AM: Message edited by: Paul AU ]

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Something akin to XCOM (1+2) could work fairly well. Random maps put together with tiles. Same hills and buildings etc, but the whole worked pretty well. If something like this could eventually be made for CMx2 I'd be more then happy.

Would I be right to assume putting together credible houses would be the chief problem? If you can do random map with pre-build houses you could go a long way, I would think. You'd get villages that wouldn't always make a whole lot of sense at times, but I reckon it might be worth it.

[ September 06, 2007, 12:21 PM: Message edited by: Elmar Bijlsma ]

[Mishga]

This idea is wonderful. Even a seperate program that makes a "random" map which you can import into your QB folder. Would add so much more to the game. Which I make no pretence that I am really having a lot of fun with already.

I am just greedy I guess

Meta tiles is just too good an idea to put on the back burner.

[dalem]

Make board 3 a nice little village surrounded by a couple of level 2 hills, eh?

-dale

[Peter Cairns]

Another way to approach the whole issue is to seperate natural from manmade.

The QB would create the terrain, hills and the like, and the player the features like roads etc.

It wouldn't quite be the CMx1 QB but even with that I often found that i'd have liked to edit mostQB battle maps anyway as I often found the orientation of some buildings and they way roads just stopped or changed type annoying.

It all depends on whats the most labourious part and letting the player put in the fine detail. I think people sometimes tend to over clutter maps anyway.

Peter.

[kevinkins]

Vulture ... if you need a tester please count me in.

Kevin

[Dirtweasle]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

The idea we have, and it is just that and will remain just that for months, is to have randomly connected "meta tiles". Players create "meta tiles" and CM assembles them together to create unique maps each time.

...We shall see!

Steve

Is the idea more like the Squad Leader map boards that would go together in different ways, or do you mean individual tiles, or a collection of tiles (hexs or grids or whatever they are now) with some rule set to determine how they can be combined to form a CMx2 battle map?

[Dirtweasle]

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