dan/california Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 I am guessing on this, but I think that two of the issues with arty smoke are the frame rate slowing to .2 frames per second, and the second is that there is a lot of disagreement on the extent to which it is a vicious form of tear gas/incendiary and the extent to which that should be modeled. There was an "eloquent" quote from an artillery officer in Fallujah during the big assault there about using WP smoke to "encourage" insurgents to leave covered positions followed by VT and cluster munitions to finish ruining there day. There are several post above about how the game currently ignores this effect with vehicle smoke grenades. My question then is if the effects of the WP were modeled would be gamey or good tactics to lay vehicle smoke right on the enemy trenches. How long would a follow on infantry assault have to wait to avoid being effected? Would gas masks help? Would this amount to admitting to a violation of the Geneva conventions? Would anyone care? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan/california Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 I am guessing on this, but I think that two of the issues with arty smoke are the frame rate slowing to .2 frames per second, and the second is that there is a lot of disagreement on the extent to which it is a vicious form of tear gas/incendiary and the extent to which that should be modeled. There was an "eloquent" quote from an artillery officer in Fallujah during the big assault there about using WP smoke to "encourage" insurgents to leave covered positions followed by VT and cluster munitions to finish ruining there day. There are several post above about how the game currently ignores this effect with vehicle smoke grenades. My question then is if the effects of the WP were modeled would be gamey or good tactics to lay vehicle smoke right on the enemy trenches. How long would a follow on infantry assault have to wait to avoid being effected? Would gas masks help? Would this amount to admitting to a violation of the Geneva conventions? Would anyone care? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M1A1TC Posted April 2, 2008 Author Share Posted April 2, 2008 If it is used in RL, then why would this tactic be "gamey"? I mostly want smoke arty so I can mask my movements while I flank the enemy (as you would in RL) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M1A1TC Posted April 2, 2008 Author Share Posted April 2, 2008 If it is used in RL, then why would this tactic be "gamey"? I mostly want smoke arty so I can mask my movements while I flank the enemy (as you would in RL) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M1A1TC Posted April 2, 2008 Author Share Posted April 2, 2008 If it is used in RL, then why would this tactic be "gamey"? I mostly want smoke arty so I can mask my movements while I flank the enemy (as you would in RL) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gibsonm Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 Originally posted by dan/california: [QBThere are several post above about how the game currently ignores this effect with vehicle smoke grenades. My question then is if the effects of the WP were modeled would be gamey or good tactics to lay vehicle smoke right on the enemy trenches. How long would a follow on infantry assault have to wait to avoid being effected? Would gas masks help? Would this amount to admitting to a violation of the Geneva conventions? Would anyone care? [/QB]The discussion in the Skunkworks relates to does multi spectral (i.e. TI defeating) smoke have WP in it (seems no but we are checking). As for gameness, AFV smoke is designed to protect the vehicle, not mask some friendly infantry assault (of course that raises the issue of no Mortar / Arty smoke to use instead) so using it to mask infantry is IMO gamey. If all US AFV's have the brown multi spectral smoke and if that smoke has no WP then the impact would be limited to (also being checked) respiratory issues (dust, sandstorm type thing) and those exposed to it might be say suppressed for a turn, not burnt. Of course all this needs to be checked for Syrian AFV's too. As for the Geneva protocols, As the US didn't sign up for the International Court its probably a mute point. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gibsonm Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 Originally posted by dan/california: [QBThere are several post above about how the game currently ignores this effect with vehicle smoke grenades. My question then is if the effects of the WP were modeled would be gamey or good tactics to lay vehicle smoke right on the enemy trenches. How long would a follow on infantry assault have to wait to avoid being effected? Would gas masks help? Would this amount to admitting to a violation of the Geneva conventions? Would anyone care? [/QB]The discussion in the Skunkworks relates to does multi spectral (i.e. TI defeating) smoke have WP in it (seems no but we are checking). As for gameness, AFV smoke is designed to protect the vehicle, not mask some friendly infantry assault (of course that raises the issue of no Mortar / Arty smoke to use instead) so using it to mask infantry is IMO gamey. If all US AFV's have the brown multi spectral smoke and if that smoke has no WP then the impact would be limited to (also being checked) respiratory issues (dust, sandstorm type thing) and those exposed to it might be say suppressed for a turn, not burnt. Of course all this needs to be checked for Syrian AFV's too. As for the Geneva protocols, As the US didn't sign up for the International Court its probably a mute point. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gibsonm Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 Originally posted by dan/california: [QBThere are several post above about how the game currently ignores this effect with vehicle smoke grenades. My question then is if the effects of the WP were modeled would be gamey or good tactics to lay vehicle smoke right on the enemy trenches. How long would a follow on infantry assault have to wait to avoid being effected? Would gas masks help? Would this amount to admitting to a violation of the Geneva conventions? Would anyone care? [/QB]The discussion in the Skunkworks relates to does multi spectral (i.e. TI defeating) smoke have WP in it (seems no but we are checking). As for gameness, AFV smoke is designed to protect the vehicle, not mask some friendly infantry assault (of course that raises the issue of no Mortar / Arty smoke to use instead) so using it to mask infantry is IMO gamey. If all US AFV's have the brown multi spectral smoke and if that smoke has no WP then the impact would be limited to (also being checked) respiratory issues (dust, sandstorm type thing) and those exposed to it might be say suppressed for a turn, not burnt. Of course all this needs to be checked for Syrian AFV's too. As for the Geneva protocols, As the US didn't sign up for the International Court its probably a mute point. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
19Kyle72 Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 I could be totally wrong on this, but it's my understanding that White Phosphorous is not used as a "conventional" means of delivering smoke onto the battlefield via troop transports and whatnot. That is not to say that it isn't/hasn't/couldn't be used in this capacity, but using WP is a risky measure when its primary purpose is for concealment. WP cannot be extinguished with water (or rolling around to smother it out, for that matter), nor can it be filtered out through masks. The point is that WP will assault a friendly unit just as easily a non-friendly or innocent bystander, which is why it's usually not deployed as a casual/conventional means of concealment. From all accounts, being exposed to WP is an agonizing experience; to routinely deploy it so close to troops in windy conditions would be extremely foolish to say the least. That said, I do wish for the capability to have truly conventional and overall "safe to move through" smoke delivered via artillery. I've only played this game several times, and time and again smoke has been an essential tool in successfully completing missions while keeping casualties to a minimum. I can't wait to install the latest update, but do hope that smoke via artillery will be a viable option in the next patch. Correction: After doing some research, WP is used for concealment, but from what I've read, the WP used in these munitions has a less lethal composition than other kinds of WP (such as the grenade that's used to destroy equipment). [ April 02, 2008, 05:39 PM: Message edited by: 19Kyle72 ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
19Kyle72 Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 I could be totally wrong on this, but it's my understanding that White Phosphorous is not used as a "conventional" means of delivering smoke onto the battlefield via troop transports and whatnot. That is not to say that it isn't/hasn't/couldn't be used in this capacity, but using WP is a risky measure when its primary purpose is for concealment. WP cannot be extinguished with water (or rolling around to smother it out, for that matter), nor can it be filtered out through masks. The point is that WP will assault a friendly unit just as easily a non-friendly or innocent bystander, which is why it's usually not deployed as a casual/conventional means of concealment. From all accounts, being exposed to WP is an agonizing experience; to routinely deploy it so close to troops in windy conditions would be extremely foolish to say the least. That said, I do wish for the capability to have truly conventional and overall "safe to move through" smoke delivered via artillery. I've only played this game several times, and time and again smoke has been an essential tool in successfully completing missions while keeping casualties to a minimum. I can't wait to install the latest update, but do hope that smoke via artillery will be a viable option in the next patch. Correction: After doing some research, WP is used for concealment, but from what I've read, the WP used in these munitions has a less lethal composition than other kinds of WP (such as the grenade that's used to destroy equipment). [ April 02, 2008, 05:39 PM: Message edited by: 19Kyle72 ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
19Kyle72 Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 I could be totally wrong on this, but it's my understanding that White Phosphorous is not used as a "conventional" means of delivering smoke onto the battlefield via troop transports and whatnot. That is not to say that it isn't/hasn't/couldn't be used in this capacity, but using WP is a risky measure when its primary purpose is for concealment. WP cannot be extinguished with water (or rolling around to smother it out, for that matter), nor can it be filtered out through masks. The point is that WP will assault a friendly unit just as easily a non-friendly or innocent bystander, which is why it's usually not deployed as a casual/conventional means of concealment. From all accounts, being exposed to WP is an agonizing experience; to routinely deploy it so close to troops in windy conditions would be extremely foolish to say the least. That said, I do wish for the capability to have truly conventional and overall "safe to move through" smoke delivered via artillery. I've only played this game several times, and time and again smoke has been an essential tool in successfully completing missions while keeping casualties to a minimum. I can't wait to install the latest update, but do hope that smoke via artillery will be a viable option in the next patch. Correction: After doing some research, WP is used for concealment, but from what I've read, the WP used in these munitions has a less lethal composition than other kinds of WP (such as the grenade that's used to destroy equipment). [ April 02, 2008, 05:39 PM: Message edited by: 19Kyle72 ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M1A1TC Posted April 2, 2008 Author Share Posted April 2, 2008 Still have the wierd thing when the different panels in the editor appear/disappear as i move the mouse around. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M1A1TC Posted April 2, 2008 Author Share Posted April 2, 2008 Still have the wierd thing when the different panels in the editor appear/disappear as i move the mouse around. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M1A1TC Posted April 2, 2008 Author Share Posted April 2, 2008 Still have the wierd thing when the different panels in the editor appear/disappear as i move the mouse around. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnO Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 Here this may help in the debate Grenade, Launcher, Smoke: Screening, RP, UK, L8A1, L8A3 a. General. Provides a self-screening smoke capability for armored tactical vehicles. </font>(1) Screen vehicles from enemy direct fire weapons when immediate counter-engagement cannot be accomplished.</font></font>(2) Conceal vehicles caught out in the open which cannot rapidly find a defilade position.</font></font>(3) Screen vehicles caught out in the open during retrograde.</font></font>(4) Extricate the crew from a disabled vehicle.</font> b. Description. The L8A1 grenade and the L8A3 grenade are used with M239 and similar grenade launchers which are mounted on the Bradleys. The L8A1 grenade and the L8A3 grenades are also used in the M6 grenade launchers which are mounted on the Strykers. The grenades are filled with a red phosphorus/butyl rubber mix. Each grenade is approximately 2-5/8 inches in diameter, 7-9/32 inches long, and weighs approximately 1-1/2 pounds. c. Functioning. The L8A1 and L8A3 grenades are propelled from the launching device when electrical current at the firing clip activates the electrical squibtype fuze which ignites the propellant charge. Pressure builds up in the metal base, escapes through the propulsion holes, ignites the delay composition, and propels the grenade from the launching device. During flight of the grenade, the delay composition burns for ¾ of a second for the L8A1 and 1 second for the L8A3 grenade, and ignites the burster charge. The burster charge ignites the red phosphorus/butyl rubber smoke composition and ruptures the rubber grenade body. The ignited smoke composition disperses to produce a white smoke cloud within two seconds after firing at approximately 98 feet (30m) from the launching device. When functioned, the L8A3 grenade generates a smoke cloud faster and denser than the L8A1. The smoke cloud lasts for more than 2 minutes for both the L8A1 and L8A3 grenades. Grenade, Launcher, Smoke: IR Screening, M76 a. General. Provides a self-screening infrared smoke capability for armored tactical vehicles. </font>(1) Screen vehicles from enemy direct fire weapons when immediate counter-engagement cannot be accomplished.</font></font>(2) Conceal vehicles caught out in the open which cannot rapidly find a defilade position.</font></font>(3) Screen vehicles caught in the open during retrograde.</font></font>(4) Extricate the crew from a disabled vehicle.</font> b. Description. The M76 grenade is used with M250 and similar grenade launchers which are mounted on the M1s. Each grenade is 2.59 inches in diameter, 9.3 inches long, and weighs approximately 4 pounds. c. Functioning. The M76 grenade is propelled from the launching device (discharger) when electric current at the firing contact activates the electrical match. The electrical match ignites the propellant which launches the grenade and ignites the pyrotechnic time delay. Launch acceleration causes the setback lock to displace aft, out-of-engagement with safe and arm slider. When the slider/bore rider clears the launch tube, it moves into the armed position which aligns the explosive lead with the delay detonator and the booster lead. When the grenade reaches the desired range, the delay detonator ignites the explosive train which detonates the central burster. The IR composition is scattered which creates the brown obscuring cloud. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnO Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 Here this may help in the debate Grenade, Launcher, Smoke: Screening, RP, UK, L8A1, L8A3 a. General. Provides a self-screening smoke capability for armored tactical vehicles. </font>(1) Screen vehicles from enemy direct fire weapons when immediate counter-engagement cannot be accomplished.</font></font>(2) Conceal vehicles caught out in the open which cannot rapidly find a defilade position.</font></font>(3) Screen vehicles caught out in the open during retrograde.</font></font>(4) Extricate the crew from a disabled vehicle.</font> b. Description. The L8A1 grenade and the L8A3 grenade are used with M239 and similar grenade launchers which are mounted on the Bradleys. The L8A1 grenade and the L8A3 grenades are also used in the M6 grenade launchers which are mounted on the Strykers. The grenades are filled with a red phosphorus/butyl rubber mix. Each grenade is approximately 2-5/8 inches in diameter, 7-9/32 inches long, and weighs approximately 1-1/2 pounds. c. Functioning. The L8A1 and L8A3 grenades are propelled from the launching device when electrical current at the firing clip activates the electrical squibtype fuze which ignites the propellant charge. Pressure builds up in the metal base, escapes through the propulsion holes, ignites the delay composition, and propels the grenade from the launching device. During flight of the grenade, the delay composition burns for ¾ of a second for the L8A1 and 1 second for the L8A3 grenade, and ignites the burster charge. The burster charge ignites the red phosphorus/butyl rubber smoke composition and ruptures the rubber grenade body. The ignited smoke composition disperses to produce a white smoke cloud within two seconds after firing at approximately 98 feet (30m) from the launching device. When functioned, the L8A3 grenade generates a smoke cloud faster and denser than the L8A1. The smoke cloud lasts for more than 2 minutes for both the L8A1 and L8A3 grenades. Grenade, Launcher, Smoke: IR Screening, M76 a. General. Provides a self-screening infrared smoke capability for armored tactical vehicles. </font>(1) Screen vehicles from enemy direct fire weapons when immediate counter-engagement cannot be accomplished.</font></font>(2) Conceal vehicles caught out in the open which cannot rapidly find a defilade position.</font></font>(3) Screen vehicles caught in the open during retrograde.</font></font>(4) Extricate the crew from a disabled vehicle.</font> b. Description. The M76 grenade is used with M250 and similar grenade launchers which are mounted on the M1s. Each grenade is 2.59 inches in diameter, 9.3 inches long, and weighs approximately 4 pounds. c. Functioning. The M76 grenade is propelled from the launching device (discharger) when electric current at the firing contact activates the electrical match. The electrical match ignites the propellant which launches the grenade and ignites the pyrotechnic time delay. Launch acceleration causes the setback lock to displace aft, out-of-engagement with safe and arm slider. When the slider/bore rider clears the launch tube, it moves into the armed position which aligns the explosive lead with the delay detonator and the booster lead. When the grenade reaches the desired range, the delay detonator ignites the explosive train which detonates the central burster. The IR composition is scattered which creates the brown obscuring cloud. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnO Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 Here this may help in the debate Grenade, Launcher, Smoke: Screening, RP, UK, L8A1, L8A3 a. General. Provides a self-screening smoke capability for armored tactical vehicles. </font>(1) Screen vehicles from enemy direct fire weapons when immediate counter-engagement cannot be accomplished.</font></font>(2) Conceal vehicles caught out in the open which cannot rapidly find a defilade position.</font></font>(3) Screen vehicles caught out in the open during retrograde.</font></font>(4) Extricate the crew from a disabled vehicle.</font> b. Description. The L8A1 grenade and the L8A3 grenade are used with M239 and similar grenade launchers which are mounted on the Bradleys. The L8A1 grenade and the L8A3 grenades are also used in the M6 grenade launchers which are mounted on the Strykers. The grenades are filled with a red phosphorus/butyl rubber mix. Each grenade is approximately 2-5/8 inches in diameter, 7-9/32 inches long, and weighs approximately 1-1/2 pounds. c. Functioning. The L8A1 and L8A3 grenades are propelled from the launching device when electrical current at the firing clip activates the electrical squibtype fuze which ignites the propellant charge. Pressure builds up in the metal base, escapes through the propulsion holes, ignites the delay composition, and propels the grenade from the launching device. During flight of the grenade, the delay composition burns for ¾ of a second for the L8A1 and 1 second for the L8A3 grenade, and ignites the burster charge. The burster charge ignites the red phosphorus/butyl rubber smoke composition and ruptures the rubber grenade body. The ignited smoke composition disperses to produce a white smoke cloud within two seconds after firing at approximately 98 feet (30m) from the launching device. When functioned, the L8A3 grenade generates a smoke cloud faster and denser than the L8A1. The smoke cloud lasts for more than 2 minutes for both the L8A1 and L8A3 grenades. Grenade, Launcher, Smoke: IR Screening, M76 a. General. Provides a self-screening infrared smoke capability for armored tactical vehicles. </font>(1) Screen vehicles from enemy direct fire weapons when immediate counter-engagement cannot be accomplished.</font></font>(2) Conceal vehicles caught out in the open which cannot rapidly find a defilade position.</font></font>(3) Screen vehicles caught in the open during retrograde.</font></font>(4) Extricate the crew from a disabled vehicle.</font> b. Description. The M76 grenade is used with M250 and similar grenade launchers which are mounted on the M1s. Each grenade is 2.59 inches in diameter, 9.3 inches long, and weighs approximately 4 pounds. c. Functioning. The M76 grenade is propelled from the launching device (discharger) when electric current at the firing contact activates the electrical match. The electrical match ignites the propellant which launches the grenade and ignites the pyrotechnic time delay. Launch acceleration causes the setback lock to displace aft, out-of-engagement with safe and arm slider. When the slider/bore rider clears the launch tube, it moves into the armed position which aligns the explosive lead with the delay detonator and the booster lead. When the grenade reaches the desired range, the delay detonator ignites the explosive train which detonates the central burster. The IR composition is scattered which creates the brown obscuring cloud. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paper Tiger Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 I'm at work just now and so I haven't had a chance to get the download installed. I'm very happy to read that you've included a toggle for the smoke effect. I hope I don't have to use it too often as I love the look of smoke on the map but it does sometimes kill frames per second so it's good to have that option. I'm also delighted to see that flavour objects will be removed if there is a huge explosion in the vicinity. I have to admit that it looked strange to see them still there when the buildings around them were rubbled. Those were some TOUGH crates man. I'm looking forward to trying out the new patch tomorrow morning. I think I'm going to have to do some serious re-balancing of some of the missions in my campaign after this. Especially the ones that have poorly motivated Conscripts in them. But these are all changes for the better. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paper Tiger Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 I'm at work just now and so I haven't had a chance to get the download installed. I'm very happy to read that you've included a toggle for the smoke effect. I hope I don't have to use it too often as I love the look of smoke on the map but it does sometimes kill frames per second so it's good to have that option. I'm also delighted to see that flavour objects will be removed if there is a huge explosion in the vicinity. I have to admit that it looked strange to see them still there when the buildings around them were rubbled. Those were some TOUGH crates man. I'm looking forward to trying out the new patch tomorrow morning. I think I'm going to have to do some serious re-balancing of some of the missions in my campaign after this. Especially the ones that have poorly motivated Conscripts in them. But these are all changes for the better. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paper Tiger Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 I'm at work just now and so I haven't had a chance to get the download installed. I'm very happy to read that you've included a toggle for the smoke effect. I hope I don't have to use it too often as I love the look of smoke on the map but it does sometimes kill frames per second so it's good to have that option. I'm also delighted to see that flavour objects will be removed if there is a huge explosion in the vicinity. I have to admit that it looked strange to see them still there when the buildings around them were rubbled. Those were some TOUGH crates man. I'm looking forward to trying out the new patch tomorrow morning. I think I'm going to have to do some serious re-balancing of some of the missions in my campaign after this. Especially the ones that have poorly motivated Conscripts in them. But these are all changes for the better. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melnibone Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 * Alt-K hotkey to show/hide smoke graphics. * Walls are visually destroyed correctly in playback. They do listen! Thanks. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melnibone Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 * Alt-K hotkey to show/hide smoke graphics. * Walls are visually destroyed correctly in playback. They do listen! Thanks. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melnibone Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 * Alt-K hotkey to show/hide smoke graphics. * Walls are visually destroyed correctly in playback. They do listen! Thanks. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 v1.08 is an improvement. Thanks! Regards, Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 v1.08 is an improvement. Thanks! Regards, Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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