CM2 WW2

[hoolaman]

Originally posted by Pandur:

That's exactly right. I think many people have realised in the past that it isn't about the blue bar or any other esoteric RT vs WEGO complaint, its about the time required for one brain to patch bugs and tweak the TacAI simultaneously.

The way the patches are going I expect more and more the focus will be on improving TacAI behaviour in WEGO and less and less on bugs (which should be all but gone by now I hope) and of course this also pays off in RT for when you aren't paying attention to one section of the map.

[Battlefront.com]

Cid250,

Steve... "fork()" is a unix function to spawn a second process, so i only mean "two branchs of development".

I thought it was geek speak for something, just not geeky enough to know what it was

Even with Good coding discipline, there isn't any good Real Time game in the industry, with rich AI solutions. I mean... that AI is really dumb in RealTime.

As I said, this has far more to do with programming time than it does CPU cycles. AI coding is extremely time intensive and it is prone to failure, which requires even more AI programming, which produces more failures, which... well, you get the point Trust me on this... AI programming gets the least amount of resources allocated to it in any game project out there, including CMx1, relative to the overall coding effort. It's something where the point of economic diminishing returns is hit VERY quickly.

I see a great advantage in the WeGO, due to the more relaxed restrictions in CPU time. Why not to take advantage og it in the WeGo design of TacticalAI?

Because we don't have the time to. It's plain and simple time, not CPU cycles.

Yo can include even a much improved LOS algorithm, for example... even better than the one that you will include in the next pach.

And that Blue Bar gets longer and longer and longer with each thing piled onto it.

Because Real Time leads always to a constant shortage of CPU time.

This may be true, but it's not a consideration we feel is harming game development. CMx2 is by far a more complex, rich, and involved simulation than CMx1 was and yet it runs in RealTime. Those benefits are largely felt in CMx2 WeGo as well, yet one doesn't have to wait 10 minutes to have 1 turn crunched. So on the whole we don't see any tangible downside of having the engine be inherently RealTime. Theoretically there are downsides, as you point out, they just aren't relevant in reality.

Steiner14,

So my idea is the following: could it be a solution, to make a kind of "maximum AI and LOS/LOF" mode, that is optional for the engine itself?

This is, of course, possible in some ways if it is engineered that way. Which, unfortunately, adds more time to development. And as stated, we don't have the sort of time to put into the AI that gamers want. No developer does

Flammenwerfer,

The question is WHEN?

We can not say yet, but I can say we are already working on it as well as the Marines Module. The efficiency of the new code allows us to slipstream the artwork as well as the programming. Yet more evidence of why we abandoned the fussy CMx1 code. We had a hard enough time doing one almost identical thing at a time with that code

OtherMeans,

I'd like the ability to switch between RT and WEGO, with a save game maybe. I've been playing RT games and released it was getting away from me so I wanted to drop down to WEGO, or play a WEGO game and RT through a boring bit - any chance?

Maybe, but I don't know how much of one. This isn't exactly the same as you're asking about, but early on in beta testing the Campaign some testers wanted to know if they could switch back and forth between battles. At the time Charles said that was possible, but I do not remember how difficult he felt it was. I don't know at all if switching from a save would work. I've made a note, though, to inquire about it.

GSX,

Anyway, if WEGO is a giant pause, why not just have pausable RT with a 1 minute rewind facility? I'm not even sure that this is possible, just thinking of a way around some of the RT to WEGO difficulties.

Ideally we would have some ability to rewind RT and pick up again from where the game was paused. Unfortunately, it's not easy to do. Having a discernible time to tell the system "record the next 60 seconds" works very differently than "record this second, add it to the last, chop off the oldest second, and repeat". It definitely can be done, and ultimately I think it will be, but it's not something we have on the top of our top priorities. But as our top priorities get whittled away highly desirable features like this get closer to the top.

Pandur,

no matter how they will try to modifie RT it wont replace WeGo in the end. it can only recreate it in some ways for people wich miss the replay for example.

I agree. Some people like having oodles of time to make decisions and then to live with the results. RealTime with Pause is a different concept completely, even though the similarities are more than the dissimilarities.

also i still "dont get it" why so many people are whining about features already included, but dont like to choose them!?

I don't get it either

Steve

[panzermartin]

What about that time out system used in sports/chess? Instead of the WeGO TCP/IP, this could be very useful in current h2h RT and should be no big headache to add (I suppose). Since I started playing RealTime, WeGO seems completely obsolete to be honest but in multiplayer some battles become overwhelming and a pause with time restriction for each player would be godsend.

[Pandur]

...having oodles of time to make decisions and then to live with the results

well put

on top of that i can watch the result over and over and over again so i miss no bit of the well planed action.

have to say it, thanks for not ditching WeGo

[Battlefront.com]

Ali-Baba,

What about that time out system used in sports/chess? Instead of the WeGO TCP/IP, this could be very useful in current h2h RT and should be no big headache to add (I suppose).

You are correct that it isn't a huge headache to put in from a code perspective. It's mostly coming up with a design that is fair. The sports "timeout" concept has been used fairly well in some other games, but it is a more involved design and is harder to balance and/or keep fun. Periodic timeouts (player specified at the beginning of the game) of a non-variable time (like CMx1) is another idea we've have.

The sports type system is more dynamic and can even become part of the game again, just like an actual sports game. And that's the problem because once it becomes a part of the game that way someone is going to feel it's unfair to them and want changes made. This can be done, but it's most likely going to be contentious and take a few times to get something that most people accept.

The periodic timeout idea is inherently neutral and regular so it won't be as much of a part of the game strategy as the sports system. The downside is that it regularly breaks up the game with specified pauses, which might be unfavorable for certain types of players.

If I had to pick between the two right now I'd go with the periodic timeout design. I think in the end it will come out better for the most amount of people.

Since I started playing RealTime, WeGO seems completely obsolete to be honest

WRONG! Haven't you listened to the critics? RT is unplayable!

Pandur,

have to say it, thanks for not ditching WeGo

WRONG! Haven't you listened to the critics? CM:SF doesn't have WeGo.

Seriously, there is always room for improvement and we've got a rather pretty strong track record of making those improvements. We have no intention of ceasing to move things forward with the help of user feedback.

Steve

[panzermartin]

I'm glad you are considering adding this to the game. Pre-set pauses sounds like the best option. They could only be a bit annoying if a game is already decided, or during low level activity when they wont be necessary, or when interrupting a tank duel when shells are in mid air But no big deal actually and a skip button might do the trick.

Nobody would need a WEGO TCP/IP then. This and enhanced LOS might turn this game into a vastly different experience.

Thanks for clearing this up.

[Pandur]

Nobody would need a WEGO TCP/IP then.

thats clearly wrong for many other persons than yourself

[panzermartin]

I'm not objecting the introduction of the turn system in multiplayer, since it will actually help people like me, with not particulaty stable internet connections. But really, what is the difference of a periodicaly paused RT with a WEGO TCP (except of course not being able to issue orders for a whole minute in the latter)?

[dynaman200]

> But really, what is the difference of a periodicaly paused RT with a WEGO TCP

*I* like wego for being able to replay it from different angles, periodically pausing RT does not give me that ability. If a periodically paused RT allowed the replay - then no problem.

[Vergeltungswaffe]

^^

And there we have it...

[handihoc]

Interesting. My main grouch with CMx1, apart from the inf graphics, was WEGO. I was always a RT player, and found WEGO a bit odd, all that enforced pausing.. .

HOWEVER, after rejoicing over the fact that SF has RT, even with the ability to pause, after a few games I found myself reverting to WEGO, mainly for the ability to review events. Dunno which I prefer now (I guess the ideal is instantly replayable RT), but hey, as things currently stand we got the best of both worlds right now, so how come so many are complaining?

[Pandur]

If a periodically paused RT allowed the replay - then no problem.

isnt it WeGo than!?

[Cid250]

Originally posted by GSX:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Steiner14:

@Steve/Battlefront,

i think Cid250 makes some very good points about the negative impact of RT on WEGO. You know, WEGO-players want the best possible AI and the highest possible realism.

I understand perfectly, that it is impossible to implement things for WEGO-only, since the engine is RT.

So my idea is the following: could it be a solution, to make a kind of "maximum AI and LOS/LOF" mode, that is optional for the engine itself?

That way, WEGO players would get the highest possible realism with the best Tac- and Strat-AIs possible AND RT-players could use that, too, if they can accept the slowdowns or hickups.

In essence isnt WEGO simply an RT pause that enables you to send an email? Camera minute aside, is WEGO simply this?

A minute is a long time to leave you guys without any orders as I have seen when testing WEGO Vs RT. When playing the same scenario with both I get much better results in RT as I can pause the RT but of course not have to leave my forces to their own devices for a minute.

Example of this is a Stryker drives up a slope and spots a T-72 on the far hill. In RT, I can pause, order it to reverse and it usually will. In WEGO it gets to the top, dithers around, tries to engage with its puny MG and then its fate is in the lap of the Gods. The AI should slam that baby into reverese surely?

Anyway, if WEGO is a giant pause, why not just have pausable RT with a 1 minute rewind facility? I'm not even sure that this is possible, just thinking of a way around some of the RT to WEGO difficulties. </font>