A word of caution on CM:SF complaints

[Grumbling Grognard]

For goodness sake, wait a bit before you have a cow and sell your copy of CMSF on eBay!

The game was released TWO days ago.

This is not only a new game, but a new game engine.

BF is a SMALL house dev company! AFAIK Charles is 'the' man behind 90% of the code. There is not a "staff" of developers standing by AFAIK.

CMx1 had AI/pathing issues that took a couple of months to figure out. I expect the same from CMx2. But, at least with CM (Charles M.) behind it I 'expect' these issues to be dealt with in time. And do keep in mind this is 'NOT' a safe assumption with about 1/2 of the games I buy from other BIG house game companies that are ready to move on to the next PS2 game for "real profits" (and with a 10 year-old we buy lots of them too!)

If you have 'real' issues post them.

If you want to whine about a feature that is left out/not right and how you can't sleep at night without it... Please just tack it on to one of the other already existing whine/complain posts so as not to cloud the topics in the tech area or other "bug issues". Otherwise all you will do is piss off "some people" who will then tune you out entirely (perhaps en masse).

BUT, if you 'really' want to sell your copy...shoot me an email off line maybe we can make a deal (Christmas is coming sooner than you think and it will be rock solid by then I warrant).

As always just the overpriced two cents from a "BF-Lover-Hater".

[Janster]

Sigh..

For my case, its NOT the AI nor the pathfinding I really worry about.

Its the lack of respect for CM1 and the lessons learned there..

AI and pathfinding takes time and effort to make, so I'm very understandable, and anyone complaining about these two, might want to take a step back.

But when it comes to UI interface being downright ****ty and no purchaseable units...no drop down menu in combat, and generally ignoring ALL RTS development last 15 years.

I get a bit upset...it means the devs are not learning, they are not including other people's work, they just want to reinvent the wheel and be deemed geniouses....and at that they set themselvs up to fail.

This is dangerous if they want success and this game to do well tbh.

Reviewers will NOT be kind to this game, exept the hardcore wargamers mayhaps.

Janster

[Thunderbird]

All of this complaining is completely understandable. There is a fundamental design problem with trying to make a game both RT and WEGO. Trying to do both just can't work, unless you are willing to make 2 games.

[Battlefront.com]

Grumbler... thoughts much appreciated.

Janster, Thunderbird. What you have to remember is that we can not make one game for all people. Just because you do not like what you see doesn't mean that is the only possible way to look at the game. Other people, in fact the majority, really like the game "as is". And it will only get better, as did CMx1, over time. If you don't want to come along for the ride, I am sorry to hear that.

We must push forward and that means some will be left behind. When we made CMBO there were more people that hated it than liked it. That didn't bother us for the same reason. Losing hexes and I-Go-You-Go were good decisions to make, despite the large amount of abuse we took from people claiming that we were ruining wargaming.

Did we get everything right for CM:SF v1.0? Certainly not. Did we get everything right for CMBO v1.0 even after 6 months of the Beta Demo being available? No. This is a strange process of massive revolution and then slow evolution.

Steve

[Cavtroop]

My beef isn't that things are unfinished (that is a beef, just not my big one).

My big beef is that everyone says 'BF is a small shop, give them a break'. But they charge big-shop prices for their product. As a consumer, at this price point, I expect a finished, polished product. As a consumer, I don't care if the shop is a small 'in the basement' operation, or a large multinational corporation.

Still, I'm working around the bugs and performance issues, and am having fun playing the game now. Hopefully a patch or two will come out quickly to address my concerns with the game (check the tech support forum, I'm not going to post that here). But like I said, I'm enjoying myself at least a bit for now.

[dynaman200]

I'm not selling my copy. If the other CMx2 engine games keep the same interface I am happy with it, I would be happier if there were TCPIP support for WEGO, but that is not enough for me to drop the series. I'm only spouting my opinion about liking wego versus RT in the hope that it gets heard for the next iteration of the engine.

[Smaragdadler]

Had pre-ordered and downloaded on 27, but game (mouse pointer) lags too much on my system to play it with fun. Found nothing in the threads that helps at my system, but other reported it too. So I have too wait.

Am I angry?

Absolutly not. Was there since the the CMBO-demo, and I have seen it all before. I know problems will be fixed as much as possible in the fastes time as possible. I can have patience. (Something of real valour for battle strategist - learned it from playing CM ) Have now a reason to give CMBB a new try. All is fine and will get even better in the future... (When CMSF v1.3 is out - all this will be forgotten...)

[ July 29, 2007, 12:42 PM: Message edited by: Smaragdadler ]

[Kineas]

Originally posted by Cavtroop:

My big beef is that everyone says 'BF is a small shop, give them a break'. But they charge big-shop prices for their product. As a consumer, at this price point, I expect a finished, polished product. As a consumer, I don't care if the shop is a small 'in the basement' operation, or a large multinational corporation.

You are basically right, but the wargaming market is so small that we should be happy they make packaged software. This (industry standard) price is actually very small unless you sell one hundred thousand copies or more.

[Battlefront.com]

The small shop thing... yeah, I hear you Cavtroop. There are, however, two ways to look at price. One way is to look at the value per Dollar. We have people playing CM games 7 years after they bought it. $45 doesn't look like a bad investment compared to the many $45 they bought that were played for 30 hours and then discarded because they were played out.

The other thing to consider is that we are a niche market game maker. Often the marketplace dictates that niche products cost more than the mass market products. Find me an organic bread that costs the same as Wonder Bread and I'll retract my ponit Two other small developers we know charges $100+ for their products. We could go that route, but that isn't our style.

So it is a compromise. You are getting a product that nobody else makes. Worse, nobody else WANTS to make it that is capable of doing so. Therefore, you're all stuck with a tiny development team. And that means we can't do everything that a larger development team can do. One reviewer tried to compare us to CoH. They have more artists on that game than we have paid staff, contract staff, and beta testers. The have more dedicated, niche project programmers than we have programming the same thing. I'm still amazed we are even good enough that we can be compared to a game like that. No other wargame company is, favorably or unfavorably

Steve

[Nidan1]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

The small shop thing... yeah, I hear you Cavtroop. There are, however, two ways to look at price. One way is to look at the value per Dollar. We have people playing CM games 7 years after they bought it. $45 doesn't look like a bad investment compared to the many $45 they bought that were played for 30 hours and then discarded because they were played out.

The other thing to consider is that we are a niche market game maker. Often the marketplace dictates that niche products cost more than the mass market products. Find me an organic bread that costs the same as Wonder Bread and I'll retract my ponit Two other small developers we know charges $100+ for their products. We could go that route, but that isn't our style.

So it is a compromise. You are getting a product that nobody else makes. Worse, nobody else WANTS to make it that is capable of doing so. Therefore, you're all stuck with a tiny development team. And that means we can't do everything that a larger development team can do. One reviewer tried to compare us to CoH. They have more artists on that game than we have paid staff, contract staff, and beta testers. The have more dedicated, niche project programmers than we have programming the same thing. I'm still amazed we are even good enough that we can be compared to a game like that. No other wargame company is, favorably or unfavorably

Steve

Steve this is abosultely on target!! When I first purchased CMBO (about a year and a half after it came out), I considered it the game I had been waiting for. I still play it occasionally. CMBB and CMAK I still play five years later...I am involved in tournaments and I have a series of PBEMs and on line play with people that I have met since I joined this community.

Combat Mission: $45...... The friendships, associations, and joy of playing: Priceless

[Yskonyn]

I am all with the OP here.

Funnily the biggest batch of people complaining are newcomers to the forums as well (if that might be used as an indicator).

Anyway, I am confident that CM:SF will be the game we all want in a few months. In the mean time I am also confident that I will get tons of pleasure from it regardless!

Again, as far as I am concerned, great job BFC!

[MarkEzra]

Nidan1:

Combat Mission: $45...... The friendships, associations, and joy of playing: Priceless

Well said, sir. These games are for the long haul.

[Cheeba]

Originally posted by Yskonyn:

Funnily the biggest batch of people complaining are newcomers to the forums as well (if that might be used as an indicator).

I'm not sure how good an indicator that is exactly. I've been playing Combat Mission games since the CMBO days, and the only reason I never came here was, well, I never had any reason to, I was too busy getting stuck into playing it

Anyway, good job on the game guys, I just know it's gonna keep getting better.

[Swift]

Originally posted by Janster:

Reviewers will NOT be kind to this game, exept the hardcore wargamers mayhaps.

Janster

This is the key point made. Sure many people posting here likes the game and see past a bad UI and see the game itself. New users won't.

I can learn to use the current UI and I am sure that it works after I do but that does not mean that it is good, intuitive, fast and easy.

[vetacon]

Originally posted by Cavtroop:

My beef isn't that things are unfinished (that is a beef, just not my big one).

My big beef is that everyone says 'BF is a small shop, give them a break'. But they charge big-shop prices for their product. As a consumer, at this price point, I expect a finished, polished product. As a consumer, I don't care if the shop is a small 'in the basement' operation, or a large multinational corporation.

Still, I'm working around the bugs and performance issues, and am having fun playing the game now. Hopefully a patch or two will come out quickly to address my concerns with the game (check the tech support forum, I'm not going to post that here). But like I said, I'm enjoying myself at least a bit for now.

Cavtroop: Steve and others have basically said what follows, but your comments compelled me to add my own 2 cents. Don't take this personally - it's aimed at everyone who has made complaints of a similar nature.

What you're missing is a small but rather fundamental economic concept known as supply and demand. If the small shop in the basement was the only place on earth where you could get the product you were after, would you expect to pay the same for it as you would if the multinationals were churning the product out also? Of course not, if it was the only thing on the market you'd expect to pay very much more than simply the cost plus overheads plus a commercial mark-up - the guy in the basement could name his price and those who wanted the product would have to pay it.

You may argue that there are alternatives, but that's a pretty superficial assessment. Nothing on the market seeks to combine tactical and graphical realism like CM does; there are eye candy games which don't come close realism-wise, or there are those that focus on tactical realism with very unsophisticated visual representation.

The fact that you are able to get this game at the price you are is a minor miracle, in fact I suspect if Battlefront were to increase the price by, say, 50%, they would generate higher revenues despite losing some unit sales.

There may be some teething problems with the game, but criticising Battlefront for not delivering what the competition delivers at the same price is misguided.

Rant over.

[ASHBERY76]

The game was rushed out in a beta state because Battlefront needed to pay the bills.This is very obvious.

[Battlefront.com]

Swift,

This is the key point made. Sure many people posting here likes the game and see past a bad UI and see the game itself. New users won't.

Some of the reviews of CMBO were very, very bad. They focused on the graphics and the fact that it was turn based. When viewed thta way there is no choice other than to give CMBO a bad review. But many other game reviews saw past that. More importantly, the gamers saw past it.

We have many good reviews of CM:SF already. Only one very negative one so far (and that was a 1.0 review, not v1.01) and one mediocre review. Probably a dozen good ones. So far, I'd say, that is a good ratio.

Steve

[Smaragdadler]

When I remember right, the first reviews for CMBO in mainstream game-magazine (at least here at Germany) where not so enthusiastic. But CM has become a success nevertless.

Believe me you new guys, you can have thrust in Battlefront. For them the 'product' comes first and money second, not the other way around, (but the second 'pushes' the first of course). CM is their 'child' and their 'soul'. They will give all what they can to make, it 'grown up'. Battlefront is CM, CM is Battlefront. And if you take in count that most is coded by just one guy, you have to give credits to Battlefront. It's really amazing how far CM has gone and it WILL go further and better than many products of the big companys out there.

[Battlefront.com]

Vetacon,

The fact that you are able to get this game at the price you are is a minor miracle, in fact I suspect if Battlefront were to increase the price by, say, 50%, they would generate higher revenues despite losing some unit sales.

We have thought about this strategy and we agree it would likely work. However, we don't like it because it cuts off any possibility of increasing our market.

ASHBERY76 ,

The game was rushed out in a beta state because Battlefront needed to pay the bills.This is very obvious.

You're completely wrong. In fact, the game was supposed to ship almost 2 months ago, but we forced a delay because the game wasn't ready. Unfortunately, we could not delay it any more because of various other factors not related to how much money we have in our bank account. Some things we wished we had time to fix aren't fixed, for sure, but that's no different than any other product I have ever worked on in the entire 15 years of game development. And here is a classic story that is COMPLETELY TRUE!

One game company needed the money but the game wasn't finished. So much so that they knew they could not ship it (this was before Internet patches, so the shipping disk had to be basically final version for life). What did they do? They shipped EMPTY BOXES and then pretended that there was a terrible mistake at the manufacturing facility. This bought them several weeks of development time and then they got the final version out to people. Now, that is shipping a product before it is ready

The other one I know of was from the same company. The bank was going to call their loan and shut them down if they didn't ship the game by a certain date. The game wasn't ready. So when the representative came from the bank to the warehouse, he saw the company loading pallets of product onto trucks. The trucks drove around the block and parked. The bank representative said everything was fine and left. The trucks drove back and unloaded the pallets of empty boxes and then they finished the game a few weeks later.

Very true stories. Makes a few bugs that will be fixed very quickly look like small potatoes

Steve

[Bonxa]

Is that what they call entrepreneurship?

[Grumbling Grognard]

Where's all those off-line emails? My hotmail is empty...well except for pissed off people from YouTube responding...oh never mind.

GG