Syrian TO&E thread

[Dirtweasle]

Nukes.

The only practical / plausible scenario I can imagine at the moment that unifies The West to act starts with the use of an atomic weapon,(or other special weapon perhaps). For instance, a not-state actor, such a the Hez or AQ, with sanctuary in Syria, lights off a nuc in Israel.

If your only concern is a plausible scenario to get the US, UK, and the Aussies in Syria, absent France and Germany, within 5 or so years, it's a lot easier to think of a sceanrio.

[hellfish]

What about something like a Syrian spoiling attack on the UN force in Lebanon? They attempt to inflict as many casualties as possible in the hopes that the European public loses all support for the mission.

[birdstrike]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

Will Kick the Tires and Take Her for a Spin attract or repel more players? This is the most upbeat of the themes, trying out the new 'New Army' with some OPFOR battles. One imagines rural 17 year olds in ROTC wanting to give the game a look. The downside might be uninspiring scenario stories.

Maybe BF should reserve the rights for the next "Need for Speed - Battleground"?

[MikeyD]

*bumped*

[Battlefront.com]

Thanks! I meant to bump this myself.

Rudel... any more details on Engineers or Platoon HQ composition? Those are the two holes I have right now. I've made educated guesses using Soviet and Russian TO&E, but there is a good chance that my guesses are not 100% accurate.

Steve

[dan/california]

I want a beta copy.

Rudel deserves one! :eek:

[rudel.dietrich]

I am on assignment at the moment and hope to be back in the office by Oct ~10-13

This also explains my dissapearance as of late

[rudel.dietrich]

I am going back to Virginia tomorrow for some much deserved time off.

These 100 hour work weeks are not exactly what I envisioned when I decided on this line of work

I do not know when I will be able to update this, but it has not been forgotten about and is on my to do list.

It would be nice if you could send me what you have already and let me comb over it/fill in details/look over the organization.

I know you guys are the programers, but I have some organizational ideas in mind that I think would be best in both of terms of presenting the TO&E in a logical format and ensuring that the user was presented with the most accurate force possible.

And could you also detail what you needed for 'fantasy units'

i.e. the direction you want to take with that and how deep you want to go with it if you want to add any at all for the first release.

I could begin working up a list of units and rank them something like

1. Possibly exists in country but not verified

2. 1-5 years from acceptance and use

3. Could be used in OPFOR nation but no plans for use at this time.

4. Possible OPFOR equipment (i.e. anything that the 'bad guys' could use.

5. Pure fantasy (i.e. western weapons that could end up in Syria in some bizzaro world)

So starting tomorrow here is a quick run down of how I am going to tackle things leading up to release.

1. Work on any project you give me and answer your questions.

2. Work on my own projects and answer any questions I have left lying around this thread and fill in gaps.

3. Comb over the TO&E when you send it my way and see if I can improve it in any way or suggest ways to make it better.

4. Learn about how you plan on organizing the OPFOR TO&E and see if any of my ideas could be used

5. Begin work on a 'fantasy' OPFOR TO&E for use outside of the Syrian TO&E

If you need anything at all, you know my E-mail and you can pm me or use this thread.

I am here as a resource so please make use of me

Rudel

[Battlefront.com]

Hi Rudel,

Sorry to hear about the long hours. For some reason I can sympathize!

The method of presenting the TO&E to the player has been coded and locked down for almost a year already, so there isn't anything more to do with that. It's a two step process... you have a list to purchase from and a list of things just purchased. Then you get a chance to reorganize by taking the purchased list and creating an Order of Battle from it. There are all sorts of rules and conditions for doing both that I won't go into here.

There is no fantasy stuff going into the initial release of CM:SF. That stuff will be sprinkled into the Modules that follow. So no need to worry about that stuff now.

That's pretty much most of what you had on your list

What we still need are a few tidbits of actual Syrian TO&E. It won't look anything like what is in the game since what the game uses is not easily readable outside of the game. Lots of special coding clutters up those files. So tomorrow I'll send you what I've got so far and you can see where the holes are. I'll probably get it to you by mid Wednesday.

Thanks!

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

Rudel,

Do you have a specific TO&E for the Support Company assigned to a Mech Infantry Battalion? Standard Soviet TO&E has no Support Company, rather a number of Support Platoons attached directly to the Battalion HQ:

Mortar Battery

1 x HQ

2 x Mortar Platoon (3x120mm)

Antitank (BTR based only)

1 x HQ

3 x ATGM Squad (2xATGM each)

1 x Recoilless Team (3xRecoilless)

Antitank (BMP based only)

1 x HQ

3 x ATGM Squad (2xATGM each)

Automatic Grenade Launcher

1 x HQ

3 x AGL Squad (2xAGL each)

Antiair

1 x HQ

3 x SAM Team (3xSAMs each)

The lack of a Support Company makes sense if they are to be split up, as you state on Page 2, to support the Mech Companies. It would amount to:

1xATGM Squad (2xATGM)

1xAGL Squad (2xAGL)

1xSAM Squad (3xSAM)

Mortars not necessarily attached, but if so probably 3x120mm

You also state that the Syrian Mech Companies have a rather huge amount of firepower compared to the Soviet ones by incorporating 4x82mm Mortars or 2x120mm Mortars for each Company. Based on the Soviet TO&E from the 1990s this would appear to be the amount a Battalion has at its disposal.

Any details on this?

Thanks!

Steve

[ November 09, 2006, 11:38 PM: Message edited by: Battlefront.com ]

[Battlefront.com]

Another question, this time from back on Page 1. Squad size for a Soviet Infantry Brigade is 9 men, just like for a Mech Infantry Brigade. However, since there is no Squad organic transport the 2 men that would be manning the BMP/BTR are part of the dismounted Squad element. Meaning, Mech Squads have 7 dismounts, Infantry Squads 9. The extra two are a RPK gunner and assistant gunner, otherwise squad organization is the same.

Steve

[rudel.dietrich]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Rudel,

Do you have a specific TO&E for the Support Company assigned to a Mech Infantry Battalion? Standard Soviet TO&E has no Support Company, rather a number of Support Platoons attached directly to the Battalion HQ:

Mortar Battery

1 x HQ

2 x Mortar Platoon (3x120mm)

Antitank (BTR based only)

1 x HQ

3 x ATGM Squad (2xATGM each)

1 x Recoilless Team (3xRecoilless)

Antitank (BMP based only)

1 x HQ

3 x ATGM Squad (2xATGM each)

Automatic Grenade Launcher

1 x HQ

3 x AGL Squad (2xAGL each)

Antiair

1 x HQ

3 x SAM Team (3xSAMs each)

The lack of a Support Company makes sense if they are to be split up, as you state on Page 2, to support the Mech Companies. It would amount to:

1xATGM Squad (2xATGM)

1xAGL Squad (2xAGL)

1xSAM Squad (3xSAM)

Mortars not necessarily attached, but if so probably 3x120mm

You also state that the Syrian Mech Companies have a rather huge amount of firepower compared to the Soviet ones by incorporating 4x82mm Mortars or 2x120mm Mortars for each Company. Based on the Soviet TO&E from the 1990s this would appear to be the amount a Battalion has at its disposal.

Any details on this?

Thanks!

Steve

2x120mm mortars (Armoured Truck towed)

OR

4x82mm mortars (Armoured Truck towed)

3xATGM teams (with BTR)

3xSAM teams (With BTR)

I saw some references that say 4 HMG or 4 MMG were also included but could not confirm that.

It would make sense since the role of mech units would be defensive in nature

A rather tiny company but each Batallion has one.

Serves three main purposes, to ward of Helos, level one fire support and added depth in defense against armour and mech units.

And by split up, I mean that the entire company would support which ever company was in the leading attack or probe role.

As to your second question

That was a typo on my part. That shold be for each batallion and not company.

[rudel.dietrich]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Another question, this time from back on Page 1. Squad size for a Soviet Infantry Brigade is 9 men, just like for a Mech Infantry Brigade. However, since there is no Squad organic transport the 2 men that would be manning the BMP/BTR are part of the dismounted Squad element. Meaning, Mech Squads have 7 dismounts, Infantry Squads 9. The extra two are a RPK gunner and assistant gunner, otherwise squad organization is the same.

Steve

I am not sure

I was under the impression that their were two full time crew members who did not dismount.

What happens if the squad comes under fire and is wiped out or the two crew members are lost?

The vehicle is undamaged but useless?

That seems really really dumb to have made it like that.

[rudel.dietrich]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Thanks! I meant to bump this myself.

Rudel... any more details on Engineers or Platoon HQ composition? Those are the two holes I have right now. I've made educated guesses using Soviet and Russian TO&E, but there is a good chance that my guesses are not 100% accurate.

Steve

I think I detailed platoon HQ squads, did I not?

9 men

Armed exactly like a regular squad

No radio that I can find

Guards, airborne and SF platoon HQ squads would have radios

NO RPG in those squads

Engineers

Each company has four nine men squads and then a 5 man platoon HQ squad

Armed like regular infantry except for the special weapons which are quite varied

TNT

AT Mines

Flamethrowers

C4

Entrenching tools and other tools to fortify an area

Basic Soviet stuff

[rudel.dietrich]

Here are some updates to questions I have been asking

No new news on the Soviet T-80

Airborne squads DO have BMP-3s

I have pictures to prove it

No you cant see them

Syrian AT guns CAN fire ATGMs and each gun has an allotment of them

I am still not sure if Syria has the 2A45M

I would almost like to stumble across the fact they do simply because that would be nice to see if AT guns in consealed locations can still combat modern armour.

NV and IR googles for airborne and special forces seems to be somewhat modern stuff from the 90s

IR scopes appear to be widely used by SF units

I have also read about them using many many different types of sniper rifles besides the SVD.

Bolt action rifles

And some units have G-3/SG-1 and the SG-550

Both should be looked at for inclusion into the game.

[Battlefront.com]

Hi Rudel,

Thanks for the answers and the clarification on the Mech Infantry. I think you misunderstood me when you gave this answer:

I was under the impression that their were two full time crew members who did not dismount.

For the Mech Infantry, absolutely correct. The driver and the gunner always remain in the vehicle. The vehicle commander is also the Squad Leader, who dismounts with the Squad. What I was talking about is the regular Infantry units within the Syrian Army. They've got tons of them, mostly as independent brigades. In Soviet doctrine the Squad size is the same, but since there is no organic transport to the Squad all 9 are dismounts, unlike Mech Infantry where there is organic transport to the Squad. When you detailed plain old Infantry on the first page of this thread you didn't note the headcount for the Squads. At present time I am assuming they are 9 men and not 7.

Thanks for the Engineer info... that's what I needed

We've made a decision to hold the Airborne units over until the first Module. Too much to do for the initial release already and we want there to be some sort of new experience for the Red side in each Module. For subsequent Modules we'll probably expand the equipment to include things which are not apparently part of the Syrian forces today (like T-80s), but in theory could be or in fact might be by the time the Module comes out.

SG-550? Wow... that's not a gun that is found hardly anywhere! I'm surprised to hear it managed to find its way down to Syria.

Thanks again!!

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

Oh yeah... and any sign of how 60mm Mortars are distributed? Normal Soviet TO&E gives an Infantry (not Mech Infantry) Battalion a 9x60mm Mortars divided up into three sections of three each. Yet I don't see them in your TO&E outlines.

Thanks!

Steve

[John Kettler]

Steve,

When did the Soviets/Russians get 60mm mortars? Historic light mortars were 45 and 50mm, with normal mortars being 82mm, heavies 120mm, and superheavies in 160mm and 240mm. If the Soviets had 60mm mortars during the Cold War, then I must've slept through the relevant threat briefing! The only place I can even imagine the possibility would be in SpetsNaz and OsNaz units masquerading as Western forces.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Battlefront.com]

Hi John,

I should have qualified that by saying Soviet organization of forces in the Middle East. Most of the nations in the ME, as far as I can tell, use various types of 60mm mortars. They are domestically produced in the region and can be seen used by Insurgents in Iraq. I'm not sure how many, if any, are in use with Syrian forces or which type of forces.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

Rudel,

Sorry! One more point of clarification:

I think I detailed platoon HQ squads, did I not?

Looking back at what you wrote I am confused. You state that a Platoon has 3 Squads, but do not specify any HQ element. You do for the Company, which makes me think that there is no separate command element at the Platoon level? In other words:

Infantry Company

1 x Command Squad (9 men)

3 x Infantry Platoon

1 x Rifle Squad (Platoon Leader + 8 men)

2 x Rifle Squad (Squad Leaer + 8 men)

Is that right? Or is it more like Soviet and Western TO&E like:

Infantry Company

1 x Command Squad (9 men)

3 x Infantry Platoon

1 x HQ Team or Squad (4 or more men)

3 x Rifle Squad (Squad Leaer + 8 men)

Obviously there is a huge difference between the two

Steve

[John Kettler]

Steve,

Very much appreciate that clarification!

(gasps in relief)

Regards,

John Kettler

[c3k]

BF.C,

As much as rudel.dietrich's information is obviously very appreciated, what checks are you performing to verify the authenticity of the information?

I'm certainly not trying to cast aspersions here; quite the contrary, I think rudel.dietrich is performing a great service.

However, I would think our little community would be quite chagrined to find out if there were mistakes being propagated throughout the game because sources were not being double-checked.

Now, I certainly do NOT want to have this done publicly. I am just hoping that you're not creating a major element of the game based on information being posted in a forum.

On a final note, I again would like to applaud rudel.dietrich for the work he's doing.

Thank you,

Ken

[rudel.dietrich]

Originally posted by c3k:

BF.C,

As much as rudel.dietrich's information is obviously very appreciated, what checks are you performing to verify the authenticity of the information?

I'm certainly not trying to cast aspersions here; quite the contrary, I think rudel.dietrich is performing a great service.

However, I would think our little community would be quite chagrined to find out if there were mistakes being propagated throughout the game because sources were not being double-checked.

Now, I certainly do NOT want to have this done publicly. I am just hoping that you're not creating a major element of the game based on information being posted in a forum.

On a final note, I again would like to applaud rudel.dietrich for the work he's doing.

Thank you,

Ken

I want to address this point first.

Most of the information in this thread is either wrong or partially wrong.

I know that is shocking at this stage in the game.

But it is the nature of the beast.

As Steve and BF can tell you, getting information out of this region is damn near impossible.

The information I have is the best avaliable but is still either a few years or few decades old and based only on best guesses and tiny pieces of information pieced together and then the gaps are filled in in logical ways.

And all of these formations are pristine. Within the first few hours of a war they would be bombed 24/7 and never look like this again.

So total accuracy is not even that important.

What I am presented here is closer to reality than anything else that I have seen presented.

So while far from perfect it will at least give some semblence of a real army.

I can also guarantee that the US side will not be totaly accurate either. Those are ever shifting formations as well and in a period of rapid change to meet the kinds of conflicts that the US finds itself in.

[rudel.dietrich]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Rudel,

Sorry! One more point of clarification:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I think I detailed platoon HQ squads, did I not?

Looking back at what you wrote I am confused. You state that a Platoon has 3 Squads, but do not specify any HQ element. You do for the Company, which makes me think that there is no separate command element at the Platoon level? In other words:

Infantry Company

1 x Command Squad (9 men)

3 x Infantry Platoon

1 x Rifle Squad (Platoon Leader + 8 men)

2 x Rifle Squad (Squad Leaer + 8 men)

</font>

[rudel.dietrich]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Hi Rudel,

Thanks for the answers and the clarification on the Mech Infantry. I think you misunderstood me when you gave this answer:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I was under the impression that their were two full time crew members who did not dismount.

For the Mech Infantry, absolutely correct. The driver and the gunner always remain in the vehicle. The vehicle commander is also the Squad Leader, who dismounts with the Squad. What I was talking about is the regular Infantry units within the Syrian Army. They've got tons of them, mostly as independent brigades. In Soviet doctrine the Squad size is the same, but since there is no organic transport to the Squad all 9 are dismounts, unlike Mech Infantry where there is organic transport to the Squad. When you detailed plain old Infantry on the first page of this thread you didn't note the headcount for the Squads. At present time I am assuming they are 9 men and not 7.

Thanks for the Engineer info... that's what I needed

We've made a decision to hold the Airborne units over until the first Module. Too much to do for the initial release already and we want there to be some sort of new experience for the Red side in each Module. For subsequent Modules we'll probably expand the equipment to include things which are not apparently part of the Syrian forces today (like T-80s), but in theory could be or in fact might be by the time the Module comes out.

SG-550? Wow... that's not a gun that is found hardly anywhere! I'm surprised to hear it managed to find its way down to Syria.

Thanks again!!

Steve </font>