Syrian TO&E thread

[rudel.dietrich]

Nope not it

[akd]

Hrrmmm...PSO?

[ September 06, 2006, 08:09 PM: Message edited by: akd ]

[rudel.dietrich]

Thats it

The other was listed as a 8x IR scope and was almost as long as the gun itself.

Shares some commonality with a SVD scope.

Why you would need 8x on a 5.45mm weapon I do not know...

[rudel.dietrich]

Syrian Special Forces

What most have been waiting for im sure. A detailed look at the Syrian commando teams.

This along with the airborne is the elite of the Syrian military.

Crack units who get the best small arms that Syrian can procur.

They are experts in fire arms, demolitian, infiltration, assasination, interdiction and operating behind enemy lines.

So without further ado, lets take a look at a squad.

A typical SF squad is just like a Syrian army squad.

9 men

Squad leader will be armed with a AKS-74U sub machine gun.

His assistant will be armed with a AKS-74 and a radio. Decent model Russian tech.

The assistant will also lead a fire team.

The LMG gunner will carry a RPK-74, scoped.

His assistant will csrry a scoped AKS-74.

All other men would be armed with AKS-74s or AKS-74Us

I could not find any ryme or reason why AKS-74Us are carried. Maybe it is up to each soldiers preference.

They share ammo and parts with the other weapons so it would not be a burden.

Here is how I would do it if I was BF.

Each man besides leaders would be a 25% chance of carrying a AKS-74U

Only way I can think to do it.

Squad leader has access to IR and NV binoculars.

LMG assistant has acess to NV goggles. I am persuming he would the one who would spot targets for the squad.

Goggles to other tend to be handed out on a rather random basis.

Again maybe preference or those with the best eyes/marksmenship?

Maybe a 30% chance per soldier...

Grenades are carried by the truck load.

Frag, smoke, illumunation, stun and defense grenades as well as thermal grenades to disable vehicles.

Small numbers of mines are also carried on a squad level

One soldier has a GP-25 40mm grenade launched attached to his rifle.

This can also fit the AKS-74U

28 frag rounds

4 smoke rouns

4 illumiation rounds

Body armour is prevalent and I would say it is a safe guess every soldier has access to at least a low level of protection.

Kevlar helmets are also standerd.

Uniforms are dark brown and black in case anyone was curious.

Now her is one point of contention between me and Steve.

I found little evidence that the RPG-29 is used and even less evidence that is it used in even moderate qunaities.

I know some were reported in Lebanon a month ago, but just because they were there does not mean Syria supplied them.

Still, the chance is there and I did find some source supporting its use.

If it is included then I would make it only on like a 15% chance per squad.

Otherwise the RPG-16D is used.

Each man carries one besides the LMG gunner.

This would be a total of 8 shots for those keeping track.

They use late model tandem rounds.

My sources state 450~mm of armour penetration is possible.

These are light weight cheap weapons so that is somewhat impressive.

APCs would stand no chance and a Abrams from the side would be damaged.

A SF platoon is 3 sqauds.

A company is a 6 man command squad and 3 platoons.

A comapany also has two sniper teams.

Armed with a IR scoped SVD and a assistant with a laser range finder, IR/NV goggles and a scoped AKS-74.

One source stated emphaticly that both sniper and spotter carry a RPG-16D.

One source also stated that the sniper carries a SMG.

Possibly a MP-5.

Most SF soldiers carry pistols.

Types were not given and I take it these are not standerd issue.

Probably should be modeled though.

Now a batallion is very interesting.

Three standerd infantry companies are in a batallion.

A fourth 'weapons' company is also also in a batallion.

The formation of this company was not really that clear.

I do know however what goes in one, just not the number of each team...

ATGM teams of three mean each.

These would be AT-13 Metis teams or AT-14 Kornet teams.

RPG teams or two men each. I guess these could be broken off to bolster the AT potential of any company or platoon.

I guess these are where your RPG-29 teams would come into play.

Engineers

Armed soley with AKS-74Us

Armed to the teeth with special weaopons. Mostly for demolition work.

Armed with mines.

Sniper teams. I guess these would be doled out to whomever needed them.

Drviers, the batallion has a few trucks and/or BDRMSs

Radio equipment

The batallion is listed at ~70 men.

I guess you can get from what what you will.

Each batallion is a self sustaining force capable of any job thrown its way.

Now there is one more regiment that Syria has

This is the elite Al-Sa'iqa regiment.

I could not find much on these guys.

They appear to be more police than soldiers.

Couter terrorism and special political jobs seem to be what they do.

Probably lots of nasty kidnapping and murder to boot.

They are the elite of the elite and have no clear formation.

They are also armed with anything they can get their hands on.

M-16s, G-36s, AKs, rifles, MP-5s

Etc etc

Not sure if BF is interested in them, but in case of a war I suspect this group would be there for a right.

They use lots of foreign nationals as well.

They have some formed east Germans among them as well as non Israeli Jews.

Can speak several languages and are believed to have operated inside Israel on occasion

Can't say much more than that....

Not sure how they would be modeled since im not sure if they have heavy weapons.

Maybe just a elite group armed to the teeth with small arms.

Anyways, there is a look at the Special forces.

That also pretty much wraps up what research.

From here on out I am here to answer any questions anyone might have as well as take any requests BF might have.

I have omitted a few groups since I did not think BF would be interested.

Syria has a AT brigade

I did not post any info on AA units

I did not post anything on the Syrian Marines

A few other groups I did not touch on.

If BF needs the info I will post it.

Hope everyone enjoys

[rudel.dietrich]

Oh damn, I forgot to do Hezbollah

I will do them tomorrow night, I do not have much on them but I do have something.

Plus they would be extremly effective ingame units.

[akd]

Originally posted by rudel.dietrich:

I saw reference to larger optics that were almost the entire length of the gun itself and were labled as 8x IR sights.

1PN58 night vision scope, I assume.

http://www.dragunov.net/1pn58.htm

One soldier has a GP-25 40mm grenade launched attached to his rifle.

This can also fit the AKS-74U

As far as I know, the GP-25 does not fit the AKS-74U.

http://club.guns.ru/eng/gp25.html

There is, however, a special suppressed 30mm launcher that was developed for the AKS-74U-UBN.

http://www.modernfirearms.net/assault/as03-e.htm

[Jaska.]

Originally posted by rudel.dietrich:

Infantry

There is a squad LMG gunner and his assistant.

THe LMG is a 7.62mm RPK saw.

I wonder why they carry the RPK instead of This baby ?

To my untrained eye, the RPK's only benefit over the PKM would be that it's lighter than the PKM. When I was in the infantry though, my LMG gunner had the PKM. Sure, it weighs a bit, but he was a sturdy fellow and handled the gun well.

PKM packs more oomph with its 7,62x54R cartridge compared to RPK's 7,62x39. It's got bigger belts, at usually 100 rounds each, compared to RPK's 40 round box magazine. It even beats the RPK in firepower, 650 per min vs 600.

Why select the RPK ? :confused:

[hellfish]

You can't fire the PKM from the hip easily, could you? There's no handguards on the barrel. I think the RPK is more of a squad automatic weapon than a light machinegun. The RPK can't swap it's barrel, for example.

[rudel.dietrich]

Originally posted by akd:

[As far as I know, the GP-25 does not fit the AKS-74U.

I read it was either the GP-25 or the GP-20

I have been in meetings all day and my brain is fried

[rudel.dietrich]

Originally posted by Prinz Eugen_2:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by rudel.dietrich:

Infantry

There is a squad LMG gunner and his assistant.

THe LMG is a 7.62mm RPK saw.

I wonder why they carry the RPK instead of This baby ?

To my untrained eye, the RPK's only benefit over the PKM would be that it's lighter than the PKM. When I was in the infantry though, my LMG gunner had the PKM. Sure, it weighs a bit, but he was a sturdy fellow and handled the gun well.

PKM packs more oomph with its 7,62x54R cartridge compared to RPK's 7,62x39. It's got bigger belts, at usually 100 rounds each, compared to RPK's 40 round box magazine. It even beats the RPK in firepower, 650 per min vs 600.

Why select the RPK ? :confused: </font>

[Kwazydog]

Originally posted by akd:

Does have a side-folding stock, but it is solid instead of skeletal. AK-74M also come with an optic rail, so if all these Syrian rifles truly have optics, I would suspect they are AK-74Ms. AK-74M is now pretty standard issue for the Russian military. Kalashnikov advertises a "AKS-74M" for "airborne forces," but I am have trouble determining if there is actually any difference from AK-74M.

Actually Im pretty sure that they have both as I have found several references to the AK-74M being purchased by the Syrians in 2001, such as in the below.

http://mdb.cast.ru/mdb/3-2001/ff/atdam/

I dont know how we should deal them out though at this point.

Rudel, thanks again for this info, it has been a great resource! I am currently making the AK models so this combined with the info we alreayd had is helping very much to determine just what we should do here

[rudel.dietrich]

Originally posted by KwazyDog:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by akd:

Does have a side-folding stock, but it is solid instead of skeletal. AK-74M also come with an optic rail, so if all these Syrian rifles truly have optics, I would suspect they are AK-74Ms. AK-74M is now pretty standard issue for the Russian military. Kalashnikov advertises a "AKS-74M" for "airborne forces," but I am have trouble determining if there is actually any difference from AK-74M.

Actually Im pretty sure that they have both as I have found several references to the AK-74M being purchased by the Syrians in 2001, such as in the below.

http://mdb.cast.ru/mdb/3-2001/ff/atdam/

I dont know how we should deal them out though at this point.

Rudel, thanks again for this info, it has been a great resource! I am currently making the AK models so this combined with the info we alreayd had is helping very much to determine just what we should do here </font>

[Kwazydog]

Originally posted by rudel.dietrich:

Good to know.

When I say that I see pictures, I mean like half a dozen pictures that are very grainy

Hehe, I know, the Syrian military is secretive to say the least...in fact I think they are one of the worst. It sounds like you have more piccies than I do, and Ive been looking for a couple of years Are you seeing any variation in uniforms between unit types out of interest?

I do have one tiny request though...

Once you finish it, can I be mailed a copy of the Syrian TO&E?

Not to nit pick, but perhaps I can spot any errors and try and get them corrected before release.

Im sure it can be arranged Rudel, but youll have to ask Steve when he is about as Im just doing the models/textures

BTW one question on the BRDM's...did you have any pics of these? Im curious to know if they use the AT-3 or AT-5 types...I suspect its the AT-3 but I have conflicting info on these.

Thanks again!

Dan

[Jaska.]

Originally posted by fytinghellfish:

You can't fire the PKM from the hip easily, could you? There's no handguards on the barrel. I think the RPK is more of a squad automatic weapon than a light machinegun. The RPK can't swap it's barrel, for example.

Actually we did try firing the PKM from the hip once. We had this live fire excercise and had ammunition to burn. Some of the guys (not me) tried firing from the hip. It looked cool, Rambo-style, but you couldn't hit anything.

Originally posted by rudel.dietrich:

And all Syrian RPK SAWs use the 75 round drum, I have said that like 5 times now

So you did.

The drum makes sense, with a 40 mag box you would be changing magazines all the time !

I'm not convinced why they'd select the RPK instead of the PKM, but it's their decision. I just want, as the Syrian player in CM:SF, to be able to use the coolest kit possible to defeat the imperialist capitalist godless hiphop blastin' aggressors !

[Kwazydog]

Originally posted by Prinz Eugen_2:

I'm not convinced why they'd select the RPK instead of the PKM, but it's their decision. I just want, as the Syrian player in CM:SF, to be able to use the coolest kit possible to defeat the imperialist capitalist godless hiphop blastin' aggressors !

My thinking is that they really serve two different roles though, with the RPK being a squad weapon and the PKM being a heavier MG, comparable to the US M249 and M240?

[rudel.dietrich]

Originally posted by KwazyDog:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by rudel.dietrich:

Good to know.

When I say that I see pictures, I mean like half a dozen pictures that are very grainy

Hehe, I know, the Syrian military is secretive to say the least...in fact I think they are one of the worst. It sounds like you have more piccies than I do, and Ive been looking for a couple of years Are you seeing any variation in uniforms between unit types out of interest?

I do have one tiny request though...

Once you finish it, can I be mailed a copy of the Syrian TO&E?

Not to nit pick, but perhaps I can spot any errors and try and get them corrected before release.

Im sure it can be arranged Rudel, but youll have to ask Steve when he is about as Im just doing the models/textures

BTW one question on the BRDM's...did you have any pics of these? Im curious to know if they use the AT-3 or AT-5 types...I suspect its the AT-3 but I have conflicting info on these.

Thanks again!

Dan </font>

[rudel.dietrich]

As for the BDRMs

Most of the AT-3 models appear to be within reserve formations.

Most are now armed with the Konkurs AT-5

I am still researching whether or not Syria has any armed with better missles.

I would think if they have purcahsed Metis and Kornet systems they would have purchased some vehicle mounted ones...

But I will keep looking.

Why did you guys have to pick Syria

Would have been better off picking a country that someone knows at least a little something about.

[ September 07, 2006, 07:28 PM: Message edited by: rudel.dietrich ]

[John Kettler]

rudel.dietrich,

Am revisiting the artillery ranges you gave, using the aforementioned Isby book as my source. Am finding lots of major disparities. Am going to try the quote feature for the first time, so bear with me while I first get that sorted out, then go back and show the "should read" values. My edits have JK in front of them.

The backbone of Syrian artillery would be the 122mm D30.

Old but still able to launch a average powered shell almost 10.5km

I found evidence that Syria does have a number of RAR. These would increase range to probably ~25km but would mean little in game terms.

Ammo load for a 122mm D30 is 80 rounds

JK

Isby, p. 258 shows 122 D-30 range as 15.3 km and the unit of fire as 64 HE, 12 smoke and 4 HEAT;

point blank range is 800m with BK-6M HEAT

Next up is the 130mm M46

11km range

80 rounds per gun

JK

Isby, p. 263 shows 27.5 km, 70 rounds per gun (no separate breakout by type), but HE, APHE, smoke and illumination. Point blank range is 1170 m with APHE.

Heavy pieces:

Next up is the stuff that puts big holes on things.

The 152mm D20

Cousin of the D30 this one can fire a very destructive shell 11km

Ammo per gun is 50 shells

Syria has RAR for this gun as well.

JK

Isby, p. 261 shows 18.5 km, a unit of fire of 60 rounds (48 HE, 9 smoke?, 3 APHE), with types, HE, APHE, smoke, illum, chem. Point blank range is 800m with APHE.

Then comes the king of what Syria can pound their enemies with.

The 180mm S-23

Able to launch a 7 inch shell 11.5km

Ammo load is 45 rounds per gun.

JK

Isby, p. 268 lists unassisted range for this deep strike weapon as 30.4 km and 43.8 km with RAP, with nonnnuclear shell types being HE and concrete piercing. Unit of fire shown is 40 rounds. Point blank range is 1170 m with APHE.

Syria has more guns than this, but these types cover the bulk of their field pieces.

They are also a good crossrange of sizes from smallest to largest.

I found evidence that Syria has very small stockpiles of airburst anti armour rounds.

Probably enough to model but each gun should probably only get a tiny handfull if any at all.

Most of their shell are good old HE blast the earth apart types of shells.

A battery is 3 guns.

A batallion is 6 batteries for 18 guns.

Uses mostly trucks to get around but also has MT-LBs and BTR-50PKs

SP guns:

Just two types of these.

2S1 Gvozdika

A 122mm D30 gun bolted onto a tracked carrier. Significant quanities of these.

Lack sophisticated fire control systems.

I have strong evidence that Syria can use these in a direct fire role and doles out very small quanties of HEAT shells to each vehicle.

36 HE shells and 4 HEAY shells per gun.

JK

Isby, p. 275 lists unit of fire as 40 rounds (32 HE, 6 smoke, 2 HEAT). Point blank range is 800m with HEAT.

2S3 Akatsyia

152mm D20 also bolted on a tracked carrier.

28 HE shells and 5 HEAT shells.

JK

Isby lists unit of fire as 46 rounds, with types including HE, RAP, APHE, HEAT, chemical and beehive. No split given. Point blank range is 800 m with APHE.

A platoon (battery) of SP guns is 3 vehicles.

A batallion is 6 platoons for 18 guns.

Regards,

John Kettler

[ September 07, 2006, 07:57 PM: Message edited by: John Kettler ]

[rudel.dietrich]

Alot of my ranges were indeed wrong.

I had access to Russian sources which list ditances in cables :confused:

I did all the conversions wrong

Im serious

I did not fix them becasue they hardly matter to a game like CM

But by all means, please fix them.

Someone might really be curious.

[John Kettler]

rudel.dietrich,

Cables? You mean they haven't gotten past Navarino yet? Egad! Have decided to go back and list the point blank ranges for direct fire vs. 2 m high target, too. Seems highly game germane to me!

Regards,

John Kettler

[rudel.dietrich]

Originally posted by John Kettler:

rudel.dietrich,

Cables? You mean they haven't gotten past Navarino yet? Egad! Have decided to go back and list the point blank ranges for direct fire vs. 2 m high target, too. Seems highly game germane to me!

Regards,

John Kettler

Yes cables

I am trying to think of an explanation but none is forthcoming.

First I did not think cables could even be measured on land.

Second I did not think anyone used cables past 1925.

Only the Russians would do something in such an iefficient manner!

And the information given is very basic.

Shell weights, ranges, degree of elevation, ammo types, weight etc.

[rudel.dietrich]

How can the 2S3 have more rounds for a larger gun type when the carrier is the same as the 2S1

Or is the tracked carrier different?

[ September 07, 2006, 08:09 PM: Message edited by: rudel.dietrich ]

[rudel.dietrich]

Not going to get to Hezbollah tonight.

I have a bit more research to do on them and I have worked 60+ hours the last two weeks and im tired

Maybe late tomorrow I can post info on them.

They will be the last big group I do.

Then I can do some small stuff and tie up loose ends and do anything BF needs me to do.

[akd]

Originally posted by rudel.dietrich:

As for the BDRMs

Most of the AT-3 models appear to be within reserve formations.

Most are now armed with the Konkurs AT-5

I am still researching whether or not Syria has any armed with better missles.

I would think if they have purcahsed Metis and Kornet systems they would have purchased some vehicle mounted ones...

This is what I could find on Kornet vehicle systems:

VEHICLE MOUNTS

The Kornet anti-tank guided weapon system is mounted on a cross-country, armoured chassis based on the BMP-3 infantry fighting vehicle which entered production in the late 1980s and is in service with the Russian Army. BMP-3 is a tracked, armoured, amphibious vehicle. It has a 500hp diesel engine, weighs 18.7t and is capable of a maximum speed of 70km/hr and range of 600km. The vehicle is equipped with night vision devices.

The self-propelled Kornet missile system has the capability for automatic loading and the simultaneous launching of two missiles at a single target. 16 missiles can be carried. It has a crew of two.

KLIVER MISSILE / GUN TURRET

The KBP Instrument Design Making Bureau has recently developed the Kliver missile / gun turret based on the Kornet missile system, which can be mounted on a variety of vehicles including the Russian Army's BTR-80 armoured personnel carrier and BMP-1 infantry fighting vehicle. It can also be installed on small ships such as coastal patrol boats.

The Kliver turret carries four Kornet missiles and a 30 mm 2A72 gun. The gun has a range of 4,000m and can fire at the rate of 350 - 400 rounds per minute. There is also a 7.62mm PKT machine gun. Total weight of the turret is around 1,500kg, including ammunition and missiles. The automatic fire control system includes ballistic computer, thermal sight, laser rangefinder and stabilisation system. The turret has a 360° traverse and an elevation of -15° to +60°.

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/kornet/

http://www.shipunov.com/eng/bron/bmp2.htm

http://www.shipunov.com/eng/bron/kluiver.htm

These appear to be based on drop-in turret replacements, which would probably be a pretty significant acquisition for Syria.

Also this:

which I have seen on the BMP-3 chassis and on a Panhard VBL (mock-up?):

Panhard VBL with Kornet

KBP does not advertise any vehicle systems for Metis-M1.

I'm sure the standard infantry systems can be easily adapted to light vehicles in an open turret/pintle configuration. Greece has apparently done a number of these pairings.

http://www.armyrecognition.com/europe/Grece/Exhibition/Thessalonik_2005/Forum_Pictures/KORNET_1.jpg

http://img458.imageshack.us/img458/4297/hummerkornet013ro.jpg

http://img279.imageshack.us/img279/2203/humarmoured02ur.jpg

[ September 07, 2006, 08:27 PM: Message edited by: akd ]

[rudel.dietrich]

BTW

The SP ATGM systems they do have have missles that are not first generation missles or lauchers.

The Malkmutka and Konkurs both would be the -M version which has significantly more penetration value and accuracy.

I doubt they have the BMP-3 Kornet version

I doubt they have the Khrizantema-S

However, they could have some of the 9P149 Shturm or Ataka in their guards division.

That would be an upgrade over the BDRMs

Somehow I think thus unlikley too.

Going to have to dig.