Use of ATGM's against defending infantry - gamey?

[dima]

I was playing a last tutorial scenario. All I had to do is take my guys, equip them with Javelins and level a few buildings. Then I went in and in the end lost only 2 men.

But looking at it from real-life perspective a few squads with no arty support, no heavy guns can basically bring down 3-4 buildings with no punishment. Is this realistic? Surely it costs a lot of $$ to do that, but if it saves lives, who cares.

BTW, is it reasonable that 2 Javelins can bring down multi-story brick and concrete building?

[Muppetry]

You can also kill any squad in the open with 2 Javelin hits at most.

[Xipe66]

Maybe expended ammunition should be in dollars instead of ammo load, that way scenario designers could punish you for using certain weapons in certain scenarios.

I'm not sure about the US Military's stance on this though. (On the Internet) I've seen artillery being expended on single snipers in Iraq for instance.

[JasonC]

They would indeed use their ATGMs against enemy infantry in buildings. But those ATGMs would not typically demolish the structures themselves. Wouldn't be much fun to be inside a room one of the missiles hits, though.

[Yskonyn]

Originally posted by JasonC:

Wouldn't be much fun to be inside a room one of the missiles hits, though.

Thats signature material, Jason!

[SgtMuhammed]

One of the more famous, or infamous, incidents in Somalia was an ambush the U.S. staged using TOW missiles to kill the a bunch of the warlords that were meeting in a building. Like Jason said though, the buildings probably aren't going to fall.

[Sgt.Rock of Easy Company]

Every once in a while, ill get a single or double hit collapse on a building, but most of the time I'll either get the roof to collapse in or get an upper story to collapse.

As to being gamey, the Marines have a motto, "Adapt and Overcome." I think put in a situation to where it comes down to your and your squads lives or an expended javelin or two, any human being would choose the javelin.

[Mr Byte]

Theres just too many available IMO, every squad has three plus the HQs....

now this might be accurate IRL but they are not used as readily as a wargamer sitting in a chair infront of a PC or Mac uses them, the problem lies in we have no moral concequences to blasting away with them or no concequnce of any kind finacial ect really

I have just played a scenario where I got on a hill and had one squad after another take turns blowing syrians out of trenches at long range also took out their armored reinforcements as well lost three men to their gazilion.

[Xipe66]

In that case it's a question of effectivity, maybe RL Javelins aren't that effective against occupants in buildings (or on the buildings, for that matter).

You also raise a point I'd like to see implemented somehow - when playing a scenario with a heavy civilian population; levelling buildings like there's no tomorrow - or indiscriminate area fire from artillery or aircraft - should somehow be trackable. Because if CNN, BBC and Al Jazeera even got a whiff of 20+ civilian casualties your tactical masterpiece won't amount for **** in the big picture (Fallujah basically went that way).

Being able to zone civilian populations would be interesting, like the hotspot mosque with civilian shielding that you can't really do anything about.

(I do realize I'm playing the Iraq game, and not necessarily the initial conventional warfare at the moment of the invasion; so if this is out of scope, then I guess my points and suggestions are moot - but I do find this aspect the most compelling and interesting out of the aspects that this game can simulate)

[ July 29, 2007, 01:33 PM: Message edited by: Xipe66 ]

[z1812]

Hi All,

I have found it a bit too easy by using the javelin so I limit myself to one missile per sqaud. That way i tend to save them for something important.

Regards John

[JonS]

Originally posted by Mr Byte:

Theres just too many available IMO, every squad has three plus the HQs....

now this might be accurate IRL but they are not used as readily as a wargamer sitting in a chair infront of a PC or Mac uses them, the problem lies in we have no moral concequences to blasting away with them or no concequnce of any kind finacial ect really

Remember that CMSF is set in a conventional war, not a COIN environment. Syria is known to have a reasonable number of AFVs, so I'd expect ROEs regarding ATGMs for any force going into Syria to be fairly loose.

Incidentally, your point about "not used as readily as a wargamer sitting infront of a PC" applies equally as well to King Tigers, 95mm Cromwells, heck even Shermans, in CMx1. No one seemed too upset about that though.

[Xipe66]

If the weapon is poorly modelled it does have scenario and PvP ramifications though - and I gather especially the latter.

Are Javelins that deadly and do they level buildings IRL seems to be the question.

Lest we forget though; http://youtube.com/watch?v=Dezg8aflMmk

[ParaBellum]

I would like to see a massive cost in victory points for each javelin. Take out a tank-> fine. Take out a single infantry squad in a difficult-to-reach fortified position with no arty/air support available-> fine. Use half a dozen of javelins to take out an enemy infantry platoon-> bad.

[JonS]

Para,

I've suggested that same principle years ago in relation to CMx1 artillery. Make the FOs free (or cheap ... it's only a couple of guys, after all*) and ammo all but unlimited, but charge VPs for every round fired.

Jon

* yes, yes; training, radios, bla blah. Point is they'd be a lot cheaper than they are now.

[H.W. Guderian]

For unsupported Stryker troops the Jav has proven to be the most potent weapon found in the game so far. "Don't leave home (or your IFV / APC ) without it".

I have no experience to say if their potency is realistic.

But given that YouTube clip above - maybe a "gamey" aspect is that we don't see tanks completely obliterated?

BTW - is there any comment on what effect carrying a Jav and ammo has on a squads mobility, fatigue, ability to crawl, etc?

EDIT - sorry, MORE ON TOPIC - yes it would be good to get a reality check on both the anti-pers capabilities of the Jav and the operational realities of pulling out 12 tubes per Platoon and laying waste to 6 city blocks.

[ July 29, 2007, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: H.W. Guderian ]

[SgtMuhammed]

From personal experience I can tell you that lugging around a spare missle plus my own equipment sucked. I couldn't crawl and was severly over-balanced when trying to climb things. Moving quickly for more than 10 yards or so just wasn't an option. On the other hand, a squad in combat rarely moves around at a sprint except for quick dashes between cover or to avoid fire. Moving full out decreases your ability to see what is going on around you and makes it more likely that you will end up somewhere you really don't want to be.

[SmithyG]

Originally posted by Xipe66:

Lest we forget though; http://youtube.com/watch?v=Dezg8aflMmk

That was a test firing and the target rigged to explode. Go look up some videos of the javelin being used in combat and you'll see thats not even close to the type of damage it creates. It woudlnt even need a top attack mode if it could do that. Even detonating the tanks ammo wouldnt create that kind of damage. The Javelins an awesome weapon, but dont be fooled by a sales video.

[ July 29, 2007, 07:44 PM: Message edited by: SmithyG ]

[H.W. Guderian]

Originally posted by SmithyG:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Xipe66:

Lest we forget though; http://youtube.com/watch?v=Dezg8aflMmk

That was a test firing and the target rigged to explode. Go look up some videos of the javelin being used in combat and you'll see thats not even close to the type of damage it creates. It woudlnt even need a top attack mode if it could do that. Even detonating the tanks ammo wouldnt create that kind of damage. The Javelins an awesome weapon, but dont be fooled by a sells video. </font>

[JonS]

Originally posted by H.W. Guderian:

BTW - is there any comment on what effect carrying a Jav and ammo has on a squads mobility, fatigue, ability to crawl, etc?

Squads in CMSF get shagged very quickly when carting Jav kit about. Leave it behind unless you know you're going to need it.

[Xipe66]

I didn't know that, and thank you for bringing that up SG. I can't seem to find any combat videos though.

I do want a realistic result form the Javelins in game - and right now I belive it's against buildings and personell that the jury is out on rather than against tanks.

[SmithyG]

Heres a good video showing impacts

Some more

You'll notice that the tanks are still recognizable, unlike the tank in the test video. I'm not even sure thats a real tank and not a mock-up.

I've seen videos of it being used against buildings and I would be very suprised if 3 Javelins could bring down a house. Blowing holes and killing people inside it could do tho.

Edit: Spelling

[ July 29, 2007, 05:24 PM: Message edited by: SmithyG ]

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Yeah, the way that tank blew outwards you can guess the Javelin wasn't the only explosive on the scene.

http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=M9VBbSqaa_w

That looks more like it. I think the Javelin is about right in regards to its killing powers. It's powers to collapse buildings seem overdone, even allowing for the usually shoddy building practises in the region.

[Grumbling Grognard]

I don't know but I suspect that a blown building graphic may just represent a "building terrain tile" becoming a "rubble terrain tile". BF has to draw the line somewhere...

[JasonC]

A few items on Javelin and other ATGM use vs. infantry.

A javelin weighs 50 lbs and the round costs $75,000. A TOW missile, for comparison, costs twice that.

1600 Javelins have been expended in Iraq. About a third by the Marines, most by the army.

In the first gulf war, Bradley crews took out Iraq infantry bunkers (log or less, in some cases 2 man fighting positions with no more than a SAW) with TOWs from ranges up to 3 km. Systematically, for hours, in prolonged frontal engagements. This was extremely expensive, but considered well worth it when it helped induce mass surrenders.

Javelins have certainly been used against infantry in buildings in Iraq, but the number expended does not suggest routine regular use of them for this purpose.

Javelins are valued for their thermal imagining equipment and high powered optics. 9x mag is standard and the latest models have 12x mag, with IR.

Accuracy with both TOW and Javelin is sufficient to pick which room is hit in a hostile building. There is at least one anecdotal report of an ATGM being used to destroy a ladder the enemy was using while leaving the structure it helped the enemy climb, intact. ATGMs are, in short, *precision* weapons and valued for it.

The warhead weight of a Javelin missile is 18.5 lbs, while it is 27 lbs for a TOW. Not all of this is explosive, however. For the TOW, a recent HE round specifically intended for bunker busting exists, and uses 6.25 lbs of high explosive.

If the weight ratios basically track, this means a TOW round is effectively like a guided 105mm round, and a Javelin is more like a guided 88mm round, in high explosive terms. Since the Javelin is a dual warhead missile, it might have somewhat higher HE content per unit weight, and so about match the TOW (and 105). Obviously the armor penetration is arbitarily higher than either sort of WW II era HE, making them excellent weapons against hard bunkers.

This does underscore, however, the usefulness of cannon main armaments for routine fire support against ordinary, softer targets. It is extremely wasteful to use a $75,000 Javelin or a $150,000 TOW just to deliver the force of a single 105mm HE round, or less. You can afford three orders of magnitude more rounds for the price if you use a gun system.

Naturally, the gun system has its own costs, but if it delivers thousands of rounds over its service life, is still vastly cheaper than ATGMs for routine fire support.

It is also quite inaccurate to expect them to level entire city blocks, any more than one would expect a few rounds from a tank main gun to do so.

FWIW...

[H.W. Guderian]

Jason,

Thanks for that insight mate.

Given these facts I'm thinking, perhaps ignorantly, that there maybe cause to re-evaluate the consequences and power of Jav use in CMSF?

In CMSF at the moment, it seems to me that if you are up against non-mech forces, and you have neither Tanks, MGS, or Air/Arty support the default option to keep casualties low is to stand off with all your Javs out, send in some scouts to acquire targets, and then blast them all (2 javs seem to often take down a building and that is bad news to opponents in multistory complexes.)

But maybe the Jav's really are a "keystone" weapons platform that is correctly portrayed in CMSF?