The Liberation of Vichy France

[Bill101]

When both France and Vichy France have been liberated by the allies, can there be an option for the allied player to transfer control of the Vichy portion from the UK to France?

It has always seemed strange to me that France is never reunited in SC1, even after the chance of a German re-conquest has long passed.

[hugo]

I'll second that. How about an option to not form

a Vichy government at all.

[KDG]

How about an option to not give the French anything back.

[vveedd]

Vichy France should be automatically disbanded and given back to France after Allies liberated Paris. That’s how it works in Third Reich game and it is historically correct and logical.

[Bill101]

KDG:

An option to return Vichy to France also implies an option not to do so!

VVeed

I would only automatically return Vichy after the liberation of France if France's surrender conditions are changed.

Under the current surrender conditions, if the Axis were to retake Paris in a counterattack then that would lead to the surrender of both France and Vichy France.

France's Surrender Conditions

I would like to see alternative ideas for France's surrender conditions too. For instance, if the Free French option is off, then France's surrender terms could be like every other country's.

Or, perhaps better still, France's surrender depends not only on the fall of Paris, but also on how many French units are still in the vicinity of Paris when the capital falls. That way, the French might continue to fight for a few more turns, giving them the option if they are very lucky to retake their capital.

I think that this could add something to those hard fought battles for France that sometimes occur.

Maybe then we could have the chance for Free French land and air units based on a dice roll just as it currently is for French naval units?

[ April 17, 2004, 05:59 AM: Message edited by: Bill101 ]

[vveedd]

I am always for new options Bill but with some historical and logical fact included (maybe because I am old ))). Vichy government was marionette government and I am 100% sure that will collapse after Paris is liberated by Allies. Actually maybe even sooner, in first days after successful Allied invasion. We will never know because Hitler did what he did. But this leads us to next historical and logical fact. Hitler made Vichy only because he wanted to end war in France as soon as possible so if Germany retakes Paris I am 100% sure that they will not make another Vichy.

I agree that this deactivating of Vichy will not be good for a game if happens immediately after Allied liberated Paris. It should happen after Allied hold Paris for 2 or 3 turns. In that way Germany have chance to retake it and Vichy to stay as it was.

[Bill101]

You are right - Hitler would not have made Vichy twice. Which means that what happens to France should it be conquered for a second time should be different to the first time.

I have also thought about the allies having to hold Paris for 2 or 3 turns before Vichy reunites with France, as you have, and I think that could work too.

[Arngrim]

I absolutely agree with you Bill101, I have always found it strange that the free french units are not coordinated with either Britain _or_ France. I mean, they benefit from neither tech nor HQ support of either country, rather odd if you ask me.

On a similar note I would like to see minor allies benfitting from say, 1 lvl lower tech than the controlling major in each field.

[Exel]

Originally posted by Arngrim:

I would like to see minor allies benfitting from say, 1 lvl lower tech than the controlling major in each field.

Great idea. I completely agree. Whereas the majors didn't hand their best tech and equipment over to their allies, they did often sell or give them the next-best things, be it Shermans for UK or StuGs for Finland.

[Wachtmeister]

SC1 at first incorporated surrender rules for France similiar to any nation. However, one of the early patches changed the French surrender rules to mandate French surrender immediately after the fall of Paris, without regard to the number of French units still active or the amount of territory still under French control. This was done to inhibit the gamey tactic of transferring the bulk of the French forces to the UK.

For SC2, I believe that a return to "normal" surrender rules for France would be an improvement. Another approach, such as a cap on total units allowed to become Free French, might be used to avoid excessive French military withdrawal to UK soil.

For Vichy France, an Axis option to occupy all of metropolitan France could be offered on the turn France falls. If the Axis occupy all of France, Algeria and Syria become Free French territory. Also, the Vichy naval units that activate when Vichy is attacked, under current rules, would be activated as Free French.

The strategic consequences of immediate Axis gain of extra MPP plus a port verses the Allied gain of MPP, naval power, and bases for operations in the Med could be interesting.

[Shaka of Carthage]

Deja Vu. The same debate and issues that 3R, A3R, World at War, WiF (all editions), etc have gone thru over the years (and are still debating).

Over the years, it has evolved to this...

Germany has two options when it invades France.

1) Break the French will to resist, end the conflict and create Vichy France.

2) Go for the complete conquest of France, with there being no Vichy when its over.

First one is usually done by taking Paris or tracking the French "strategic will". The main point being it isn't about defeating the French Army, just the leadership.

Second one is your more traditional invasion, where you totally defeat the French Army, and are now in a position to dictate the terms (ie like Poland, Benelux, etc).

The political advantages of Vichy France are that you have neutralised the French Colonial Empire (in game terms they are pro-Axis neutral). The bad part is that you piss off Italy (since they don't get the part of France they wanted) and you only get a part of the French production.

The problem with a French conquest, is that the French Colonial Empire goes over to the enemy side, including the French Fleet. The good part is that the Italians, who should get southern France, would have thier "strategic will" increase and wouldn't fall apart as fast as they did.

Within the context of above, all the other options become more logical. If Paris is liberated, then unless German units occupy Vichy France, Vichy will collapse. If France is conquered, all of the remaining French Fleets will go to the UK, along with Fr North Africa, Levant(ie Syria/Lebanon), Fr West Africa, etc (solving temporarily some of the UK manpower shortages). And so on.

But, as with everything else, it takes more work to correctly set the options and thier effects up. And is it worth it?

[ April 17, 2004, 04:32 PM: Message edited by: Shaka of Carthage ]

[Leopard]

I prefer to see France fight after the fall of Paris. I think there could be chance that French troops would refuse to go to the UK (like the naval Free French %'s) and fight on would work better than the mass evacuation used too often now, or the quick surrender of France.

Also, perhaps having surrender chances for units which have lost their Capitol recently, have poor/no HQ support and are strength 3 or less would simulate morale drop after their capitol has capitulated.

[Shaka of Carthage]

Leopard

I agree with you, that the French units should not be allowed to go to the UK, and then become Free French. The number of Free French that the UK gets should be units that they have to build. For playability purposes, there should be a variation of one or two units of Free French that the UK could potentially build. If France was conquered, then that number should increase, as now the French Colonial manpower is available to the UK as well. Then when the US enters the war, those Free French units should revert to US control (and nation that could build them).

[jon_j_rambo]

What about the Vichy French that were Nazis themselves. Patton fought them in North Africa. Funny huh? French fighting the Americans, supporting Nazis.

[Bill101]

These French Nazis, as you call them, are already represented by the forces of Vichy France.

[Terry]

Intersting points and well made. For myself, I would like to see some chance where either France fights to the end (i.e. no Vichy) or accepts Churchills offer of Union (absorbed into CW and released on paris liberation). I hate the way in strategic level games you can do non-historical things like invade Turkey (which absoultely no one wanted to do) but you can't avoid Vichy (which was never a certainty).