TCP/IP Game AAR #2

[Lars]

Originally posted by santabear:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Great allied start so axis decided to give up Atlantic and Med, in SC1 that was a suicide, its interestin to see how he managed to get enough MMps to fight Russia

The way I read the AAR is that quality can really out-trump quantity. It seems like the Axis tech advances are decisive in the Russian campaign.

</font>

[Lars]

Originally posted by santabear:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Great allied start so axis decided to give up Atlantic and Med, in SC1 that was a suicide, its interestin to see how he managed to get enough MMps to fight Russia

The way I read the AAR is that quality can really out-trump quantity. It seems like the Axis tech advances are decisive in the Russian campaign.

</font>

[Desert Dave]

The way I read the AAR is that quality can really out-trump quantity. It seems like the Axis tech advances are decisive in the Russian campaign.

As Yogi (... Berra, not OUR Yogi) would say, SB:

"It ain't over until it's OVER."

How I read AAR #2, and given that I have played and no body out there has, there is a long, long way to go.

GErmany DID have early advantage in Tech, yes?

Later, Russia caught up.

In "blitz tactics" too.

You have to look at like you are a beach bum, with yer kelp & stone home built near the cliff face, and recognize it as... "ebb & flow."

Back & forth, to & fro it goes.

That would be more FUN than... drive straight through, drive right back.

Forgetting to admire, and enjoy the scenery, or, more aptly perhaps, the scenario.

FWIW, I have played a game where QUANTITY did overwhelm quality.

Russian low-tech Corps infiltrated everywhere! Got behind them lumbering - and, VERY expensive high maintenance gadgetry.

See, there are NOW just VERY many ways to "skin the Cat," whereas it used to be one or two quickly boring cookie-cutter type clashes.

There IS not any end, any time soon, of the POSSIBLE strategies, and tactics for SC-2.

Whole years will go by, THEN!

Some enterprising some body will say AHA!

I've got just the ticket!

To... the Big Show! LOL! :cool:

**And a reminder: "rail-heads" will indeed advantage the GErmans... at the first. Then, one turn-about's-fair play day, it will help the Russians, yes?

[Desert Dave]

The way I read the AAR is that quality can really out-trump quantity. It seems like the Axis tech advances are decisive in the Russian campaign.

As Yogi (... Berra, not OUR Yogi) would say, SB:

"It ain't over until it's OVER."

How I read AAR #2, and given that I have played and no body out there has, there is a long, long way to go.

GErmany DID have early advantage in Tech, yes?

Later, Russia caught up.

In "blitz tactics" too.

You have to look at like you are a beach bum, with yer kelp & stone home built near the cliff face, and recognize it as... "ebb & flow."

Back & forth, to & fro it goes.

That would be more FUN than... drive straight through, drive right back.

Forgetting to admire, and enjoy the scenery, or, more aptly perhaps, the scenario.

FWIW, I have played a game where QUANTITY did overwhelm quality.

Russian low-tech Corps infiltrated everywhere! Got behind them lumbering - and, VERY expensive high maintenance gadgetry.

See, there are NOW just VERY many ways to "skin the Cat," whereas it used to be one or two quickly boring cookie-cutter type clashes.

There IS not any end, any time soon, of the POSSIBLE strategies, and tactics for SC-2.

Whole years will go by, THEN!

Some enterprising some body will say AHA!

I've got just the ticket!

To... the Big Show! LOL! :cool:

**And a reminder: "rail-heads" will indeed advantage the GErmans... at the first. Then, one turn-about's-fair play day, it will help the Russians, yes?

[Blashy]

AND my favorit weapon of all... DIPLOMACY.

In this game it seems to have been a minor use or none at all, but in can have drastic effects.

I am quite convinced that whenever a player will come out with a winning combo, it will take a few turns to figure out a counter. And should ever a tactic be found to be the ultimate tactic, then it will be a flaw that will be readily corrected with the editor and those I expect will be found, there is so much a handfull of beta testers and one developer can do, the editor is genuis behind Hubert's work.

Also, you have more intangibles in this game because of the diplomatic scripts and other issues (like the Malta effect) make this game's sequences less predictable.

[Blashy]

AND my favorit weapon of all... DIPLOMACY.

In this game it seems to have been a minor use or none at all, but in can have drastic effects.

I am quite convinced that whenever a player will come out with a winning combo, it will take a few turns to figure out a counter. And should ever a tactic be found to be the ultimate tactic, then it will be a flaw that will be readily corrected with the editor and those I expect will be found, there is so much a handfull of beta testers and one developer can do, the editor is genuis behind Hubert's work.

Also, you have more intangibles in this game because of the diplomatic scripts and other issues (like the Malta effect) make this game's sequences less predictable.

[Codename Condor]

ive been thinkin too about diplomacy, and maybe it could be a lucky wining factor. I think Spain could be a great target and luck could play a big factor.

[Codename Condor]

ive been thinkin too about diplomacy, and maybe it could be a lucky wining factor. I think Spain could be a great target and luck could play a big factor.

[SeaMonkey]

The editor is not only the genius, it is simply the omnipotent factor of variability.

I have only had one other experience with a script editor on the level that SC2 presumes to have and that game was TOAW.

For those of you that know TOAW....enough said, for you that don't....if I may borrow Ike's words, "a lot of meat on those bones" and I'll add those are very long legged bones. Evidence the massive following that TOAW has sustained for what, maybe 8 years.

I just looked at my player's guide and the copyright date was 1998. Imagine SC2 to be that good. More food for thought, Matrix has decided to upgrade and re-release TOAW.

We may find that SC2 is better! :cool:

[ February 21, 2006, 05:07 PM: Message edited by: SeaMonkey ]

[SeaMonkey]

The editor is not only the genius, it is simply the omnipotent factor of variability.

I have only had one other experience with a script editor on the level that SC2 presumes to have and that game was TOAW.

For those of you that know TOAW....enough said, for you that don't....if I may borrow Ike's words, "a lot of meat on those bones" and I'll add those are very long legged bones. Evidence the massive following that TOAW has sustained for what, maybe 8 years.

I just looked at my player's guide and the copyright date was 1998. Imagine SC2 to be that good. More food for thought, Matrix has decided to upgrade and re-release TOAW.

We may find that SC2 is better! :cool:

[ February 21, 2006, 05:07 PM: Message edited by: SeaMonkey ]

[Retributar]

That's great news Sea Monkey !!! ...

Matrix has decided to upgrade and re-release TOAW.

I loved TOAW...especially COAW...and i think i need to play it again soon!. Im 'Estatic' that Matrix will UPGRADE & Re-Release this fantastic game!.

As Ren & Stimpy sometimes said on their cartoon show!...."HAPPY! HAPPY! JOY! JOY!".

[Retributar]

That's great news Sea Monkey !!! ...

Matrix has decided to upgrade and re-release TOAW.

I loved TOAW...especially COAW...and i think i need to play it again soon!. Im 'Estatic' that Matrix will UPGRADE & Re-Release this fantastic game!.

As Ren & Stimpy sometimes said on their cartoon show!...."HAPPY! HAPPY! JOY! JOY!".

[Blashy]

Originally posted by Codename Condor:

ive been thinkin too about diplomacy, and maybe it could be a lucky wining factor. I think Spain could be a great target and luck could play a big factor.

Get Spain on Axis side take out Gibraltar and take Egypt. The Allies are out of the MED and can only attack via France / Benelux. Going for Spain and Egypt is becoming more and more a MUST do for Axis than a simple "I'll try this next time" .

The biggest factor, it liberates all your units from covering cities in Africa, Italy, Greece and so on.

A few other backdoor moves you can do, you could have Russia joining early if the Axis player does not pay attention.

[Blashy]

Originally posted by Codename Condor:

ive been thinkin too about diplomacy, and maybe it could be a lucky wining factor. I think Spain could be a great target and luck could play a big factor.

Get Spain on Axis side take out Gibraltar and take Egypt. The Allies are out of the MED and can only attack via France / Benelux. Going for Spain and Egypt is becoming more and more a MUST do for Axis than a simple "I'll try this next time" .

The biggest factor, it liberates all your units from covering cities in Africa, Italy, Greece and so on.

A few other backdoor moves you can do, you could have Russia joining early if the Axis player does not pay attention.

[vveedd]

Originally posted by Codename Condor:

ive been thinkin too about diplomacy, and maybe it could be a lucky wining factor. I think Spain could be a great target and luck could play a big factor.

I hope that this will not be the case. Every game which have to many luck factors is very suitable for cheating, especially in PBEM.

[vveedd]

Originally posted by Codename Condor:

ive been thinkin too about diplomacy, and maybe it could be a lucky wining factor. I think Spain could be a great target and luck could play a big factor.

I hope that this will not be the case. Every game which have to many luck factors is very suitable for cheating, especially in PBEM.

[Yogi]

Originally posted by Desert Dave:

As Yogi (... Berra, not OUR Yogi) would say, SB:

"It ain't over until it's OVER."

Actually I would say that too!

[Yogi]

Originally posted by Desert Dave:

As Yogi (... Berra, not OUR Yogi) would say, SB:

"It ain't over until it's OVER."

Actually I would say that too!

[Blashy]

Originally posted by vveedd:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Codename Condor:

ive been thinkin too about diplomacy, and maybe it could be a lucky wining factor. I think Spain could be a great target and luck could play a big factor.

I hope that this will not be the case. Every game which have to many luck factors is very suitable for cheating, especially in PBEM. </font>

[Blashy]

Originally posted by vveedd:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Codename Condor:

ive been thinkin too about diplomacy, and maybe it could be a lucky wining factor. I think Spain could be a great target and luck could play a big factor.

I hope that this will not be the case. Every game which have to many luck factors is very suitable for cheating, especially in PBEM. </font>

[pzgndr]

Another update. Probably the last one for this game, since we gotta move on...

I started an offensive out of Rostov in January 1943. Multiple attacks on a panzer near Kharkov reduced it to 1 but couldn't quite destroy it. In February the Soviet Winter event triggered. Well finally! Note- I mentioned this trigger % has been increased to more or less assure the event occurs during the first winter, but there's still a chance. Despite this "advantage" the Germans still strike back and I lose a tank and 2 armies.

In March I press on destroying an army and panzer near Gorky and another panzer near Kharkov. The western allies launch a massive air raid against the 3 luftwaffe AFs clustered in the Low Countries. I even bring in a carrier and some escorts. I didn't quite manage to destroy any AFs, but sure aroused the Kriegsmarine. The whole damn German fleet and U-boats swarmed out and sank my CV and BB.

The above screenshot shows the start of my turn in April 1943. Despite losing another tank down here last turn, I push ahead and manage to take BOTH of the Dnepr mines back. I lose an AF in the process. USA gets L3 IT.

The Germans retreat in May. I'm reinforcing losses and consolidating my gains in Russia, but recapture Kharkov and make a couple of attacks north of Gorky.

In June, Germans destroy another army and corps. I recapture Vologda in the north. A raid out of Sevastopol lands in Romania and captures Ploesti. Apparently, Bucharest was also unoccupied and if I had landed in the south I could taken the capital instead. I'll settle for the Axis oil loss. Sweden prepares for war? I guess I haven't been paying attention to some diplomacy going on!

In July, Germany destroys another 2 armies and an AF in the east. I'm being nickled and dimed here. Italians arrive in Romania. Allies are getting up to about 900 MPPs per turn and I'm told Axis is about 600. I decide to risk some action in the west. Patton lands in France with 3 armies and a tank. Brest garrison is reduced to 2 and holds. German counterattacks in mid-July destroy 2 corps, 2 armies and a tank in the east. USA loses 2 armies in France. Those German corps are tough! By late July, US takes Brest and lands a couple more armies. Russia holds in the east. FYI, things are pretty busy and we're both timing out on our 11-minute turns.

UK lands in Sicily in August but fails to take Palermo. Not good. I've got 2 armies, a corps and HQ on the island but even with naval bombardments the defense holds. Russians push on to Moscow. I'm figuring Axis is feeling the heat by now, but it's dawning on me that they aren't. Patton is destroyed in France. German attacks in the east are devastating. The Italian fleet emerges to sink a couple of BBs involved in the Sicily invasion. Up north, Germans attack out of Sweden to take Norway. What looked like a favorable situation a couple months ago is now looking pretty grim for the Allies all around.

It's September 1943. Eisenhower had landed last turn but now supervises an evacuation. I pull the HQ and army out of France and move my tank into Brest to evacuate next turn. Despite air cover and shore bombardments, those German corps are too tough for my inexperienced Yanks. The UK force on Sicily is stuck. Russians hold a very thin line in the east - this after both sides wre beating the heck out of each other all year long! Allies maintain a production edge with new units scheduled for arrival over the next several months, but right now the momentum is lost. It's clear that the Allies will need several months to recover. Allies are down, but not out.

FWIW, here's my take on the Allies misfortune. Slow Russian tech advances for infantry weapons and AT early on hurt a lot. Slow American production advances hurt the Allies overall. And UK preparing for a Battle of the Atlantic which did not happen was a mistake in this game - the time and MPPs could have been applied to AFs and bombers instead. Lastly, it's clear that invasions of France and Italy were premature. USA needed better quality units and UK needed more air support in the Med. But I wanted to see how it went. So for better or for worse, hopefully this AAR shows that the game is pretty well balanced and affords both sides plenty of room for trying out different strategies. Just you wait!

[pzgndr]

Another update. Probably the last one for this game, since we gotta move on...

I started an offensive out of Rostov in January 1943. Multiple attacks on a panzer near Kharkov reduced it to 1 but couldn't quite destroy it. In February the Soviet Winter event triggered. Well finally! Note- I mentioned this trigger % has been increased to more or less assure the event occurs during the first winter, but there's still a chance. Despite this "advantage" the Germans still strike back and I lose a tank and 2 armies.

In March I press on destroying an army and panzer near Gorky and another panzer near Kharkov. The western allies launch a massive air raid against the 3 luftwaffe AFs clustered in the Low Countries. I even bring in a carrier and some escorts. I didn't quite manage to destroy any AFs, but sure aroused the Kriegsmarine. The whole damn German fleet and U-boats swarmed out and sank my CV and BB.

The above screenshot shows the start of my turn in April 1943. Despite losing another tank down here last turn, I push ahead and manage to take BOTH of the Dnepr mines back. I lose an AF in the process. USA gets L3 IT.

The Germans retreat in May. I'm reinforcing losses and consolidating my gains in Russia, but recapture Kharkov and make a couple of attacks north of Gorky.

In June, Germans destroy another army and corps. I recapture Vologda in the north. A raid out of Sevastopol lands in Romania and captures Ploesti. Apparently, Bucharest was also unoccupied and if I had landed in the south I could taken the capital instead. I'll settle for the Axis oil loss. Sweden prepares for war? I guess I haven't been paying attention to some diplomacy going on!

In July, Germany destroys another 2 armies and an AF in the east. I'm being nickled and dimed here. Italians arrive in Romania. Allies are getting up to about 900 MPPs per turn and I'm told Axis is about 600. I decide to risk some action in the west. Patton lands in France with 3 armies and a tank. Brest garrison is reduced to 2 and holds. German counterattacks in mid-July destroy 2 corps, 2 armies and a tank in the east. USA loses 2 armies in France. Those German corps are tough! By late July, US takes Brest and lands a couple more armies. Russia holds in the east. FYI, things are pretty busy and we're both timing out on our 11-minute turns.

UK lands in Sicily in August but fails to take Palermo. Not good. I've got 2 armies, a corps and HQ on the island but even with naval bombardments the defense holds. Russians push on to Moscow. I'm figuring Axis is feeling the heat by now, but it's dawning on me that they aren't. Patton is destroyed in France. German attacks in the east are devastating. The Italian fleet emerges to sink a couple of BBs involved in the Sicily invasion. Up north, Germans attack out of Sweden to take Norway. What looked like a favorable situation a couple months ago is now looking pretty grim for the Allies all around.

It's September 1943. Eisenhower had landed last turn but now supervises an evacuation. I pull the HQ and army out of France and move my tank into Brest to evacuate next turn. Despite air cover and shore bombardments, those German corps are too tough for my inexperienced Yanks. The UK force on Sicily is stuck. Russians hold a very thin line in the east - this after both sides wre beating the heck out of each other all year long! Allies maintain a production edge with new units scheduled for arrival over the next several months, but right now the momentum is lost. It's clear that the Allies will need several months to recover. Allies are down, but not out.

FWIW, here's my take on the Allies misfortune. Slow Russian tech advances for infantry weapons and AT early on hurt a lot. Slow American production advances hurt the Allies overall. And UK preparing for a Battle of the Atlantic which did not happen was a mistake in this game - the time and MPPs could have been applied to AFs and bombers instead. Lastly, it's clear that invasions of France and Italy were premature. USA needed better quality units and UK needed more air support in the Med. But I wanted to see how it went. So for better or for worse, hopefully this AAR shows that the game is pretty well balanced and affords both sides plenty of room for trying out different strategies. Just you wait!

[Edwin P.]

Great AAR, and for those who noted the paucity of Russian units in Blashy's screen shots, have a look at the large number of Russian units in the one posted above.

[Edwin P.]

Great AAR, and for those who noted the paucity of Russian units in Blashy's screen shots, have a look at the large number of Russian units in the one posted above.

[Kuniworth]

Great AAR Bill, please continue.