Maginot Line

[Yogi]

In virtually all other games covering WWII France the Maginot line is virtually inpenitrable. In fact in many games it is not even attackable at all.

In SC2 the Axis can be quite succesful in attacking the line and the AI does so regularly. I've been a bit surprised how weak the line is. My question is; Is this a "flaw" in the game and not realistic or is this the way it should be?

[John DiFool the 2nd]

Think it has something to do with units not being

entrenched at the start of the game...

[LampCord]

Yeah, it seems the French should start the game fully entrenched.

Ever see the Maginot line? It was an engineering marvel. Fully enclosed tunnels and bunkers under many feet of reinforced concrete with artillery on massive turrets. Can't get any more entrenched than that!

It was like no other fortification ever built by man. It was effectively impossible to mount an effective frontal assault against it. Had it been extended all the way to the coast, things may have well turned out different although an airborne assault to capture it from the rear may have worked.

Any defensive unit in one of those squares should be FULLY entrenched from the start IMHO.

[Yogi]

Entrenchment certainly might help. Other games may handle by just giving an automatic defensive value to the square or doubling, tripling etc of defensive value. Some games just leave them as not passable.

[TaoJah]

IMHO the fact that it's not entrenched at the start only slows his pentration : even if the three units starts entranched at level 8, after 4 turns of attacking it with three units, the 8 points are gone.

I don't know where he penetrates the Maginont line with you people, but with me he always breaches it first in the eastern unit.

Perhaps that is because he can attack that unit from the hex east of it, where I think he doesn't get a) the penalty for attacking across the river and the penalty for attacking a fortress, because the fortress doesn't seem to defend that angle.

Is there a way to verify that ? That the river and fortress defence don't apply from that angle ? Visually it's hard to say :-(

[Yogi]

I don't know where he penetrates the Maginont line with you people, but with me he always breaches it first in the eastern unit.

TaoJah, that has been the usual for me too, but it has hapened on the west end too. Of course the river may have an affect as well, but it seems the Maginot line should be stronger. It also seems unfortunate that it must be manned so heavily and the units reinforced each turn to keep it up to strength just to see it fall apart anyway in the end. As the need to defend Paris increases & reinforcements can't be spared, I have seen the line end up no different than any other square.

In games I have played the AI usually starts attacking it head on from turn one. Then after they attack Benelux they start from the "side" as well. I know that we want to alter historic events, but this one may be a little bit beyond that toward unrealistic. Perhaps others have good arguments to defend why it is correct as is.

[CharonJr]

Hmm, I am not sure how much of this is German propaganda, but IIRC I read somewhere (or maybe it has been a documentary about the Maginot ?) when the German's examined the Maginot after they took France they were fairly surprised that it wouldnt have been as hard as they thought to make a frontal assault on it.

CharonJr

[Cheese Panzer]

A couple of things to consider:

The Maginot Line was certainly a magnificent defensive work, but I think that even the French weren't convinced it was impregnable. A more important goal was reduction of French casualties - the terrible slaughter of WWI had left it's mark on France. I believe it was hoped that if a future German invasion was taking four or five times as many casualties as they were inflicting it would end the war much sooner. Then the Germans developed Blitzkrieg and the rest, as they say, is history.

Also, the winter of 1939-1940 was the worst seen in France since the 1800's. Work on the Maginot line was delayed for months by bitterly cold temperatures that made digging almost impossible and would not allow concrete to set-up. French plans had called for the initial work on the rest of the Maginot line (Luxemburg, Belgium, and on to the coast) to have the preliminary work done by the early summer of 1940. So there's another "What If" for all you mod makers.

[stanhope]

Entrench units are ugly to run up against. But with new weapons and the mobility of troops. Entrench means this is where you die. Look at Iraq wars. They died by the thousands sitting in there entrenchments.

[LampCord]

In WWII the Germans didn't have bunker buster bombs with pinpoint accuracy like the US did in Desert Storm. It would have been very hard to do any damage to the Mag line from the air.

Of course the Germans could have pushed through but at what cost? It would have been horrific I think.

The Germans certainly thought enough about it to go around it instead of through it.

[stanhope]

NO not from air. I don't know how big the guns the French had there. But some of the shows I have seen, they were not large. I was thinking more of the lines of German artillary and there tanks with the accuracy they had to take out the fort guns. Maybe it might had been a little early for that. But if you look into the Pacific war air and large guns were used to take out bunkers. Now as for D-day, we must have missed the targets.

[CharonJr]

IIRC the German's (afterwards) thought they could have taken it out with artillery. Essentially they have overestimated the strength of the Maginot, thats why they evaded it.

I think there was something about the Maginot not being up to the new artillery, but still build with WW1 specs in mind. But I could be wrong there.

CharonJr

[TaoJah]

Originally posted by CharonJr:

IIRC the German's (afterwards) thought they could have taken it out with artillery.

AFTERWARDS everyone can take everything ! I am sure that the Allied said afterwards they could have done D-Day with less casualties.

In the game, it falls too easy, but I am not sure that we can do something about it :-(

[Slapaho]

Now as for D-day, we must have missed the targets

We did not, the bunkers for the most part withstood the punishment;

http://www.normandie.zoomshare.com/1.shtml/POINTE%20DU%20HOC

from my blog

The weakness of any fortification, proven time and again through history is it is static and can be cut off or out-manouvred. Always better than hitting it head on.

As for taking out the guns in the Maginot line, it would have been possible, based on the experience the Germans got in 1944.

http://www.normandie.zoomshare.com/album/AZEVILLE%20BATTERY/images/08443c8632c27d89985f4cf0ceb6a123_11447563800/:album?css=/lib/style/trebuchet.css&css=/lib/style/type_album.css

[TaoJah]

I changed the 1939 scenario a bit and added a bit of river at the eastern part of the line. I don't know if that's the reason, but he didn't take the Maginot line this time : he had to wade through all my UK and French troops south of the Benelux.

Can someone confirm that in the original map, the eastern hex of the line can be attacked wy a unit east of it, without a penalty for the river ?

[Guest Mike]

The "Big guns" of the Maginot line were 135mm howitzers - 43 of them. And there were numerous 75mm (138), 47mm and 37mm ones, plus 81mm and even 50mm mortars (162 total of all types) in various emplacements, and any number of machineguns.

Armour could be up to 35cm thick!

Remember the "line" was not continuous - it was a series of heavily protected emplacements designed to act as pivots or "breakwaters" to provide heavy support for troops operating in front and between them.

But they were damned tough - IIRC the Americans had trouble attacking them in 1944-45 from the "wrong" direction around Metz.

See Bunker Tours website for some photos & descriptions - there's any amount of info on the net, so no real reason to have to use hearsay!

[Liam]

I heard mixed things about the Maginot, didn't German's Airdrop around the Flanks of the Maginot and do massive damage to it? I had heard something about this somewhere on the history channel, they destroyed the fortifications by some sort of explosives? Maybe Satchels thrown in This was likely just in a few areas

as far as the size of the project

I know that the French Military put a lot of her invest into it.. I doubt that German Armor could challenge it as well as German Artillery, and Germans had excellent Artillery. I wouldn't put my men up against a Wall bristling with Cannons would you? If someone told me for little or no political cost I could flank it, I'd attempt a flank, unless I thought the Bunkers were easily broken down by Longe Range Artillery

[Guest Mike]

Nothing did massive damage to it until the allies took it - the Germans failed to take a single fort.

You're thinking of the airdrop on Eben Emal (sp?) - a Belgian fort that was not part of the line.

US 44th division vs Maginot line - an fascinating account.

[Liam]

you're right it was a Belgian Fort,

this was some time ago they showed the bombed out fort and now I recall it was in Belgium not France but the Germans didn't seem to have much of a problem with it, some sort of sneak operation I thought by Paras

Originally posted by Stalin's Organist:

Nothing did massive damage to it until the allies took it - the Germans failed to take a single fort.

You're thinking of the airdrop on Eben Emal (sp?) - a Belgian fort that was not part of the line.

US 44th division vs Maginot line - an fascinating account.

[Cheese Panzer]

The Germans did attack a small part of the Line to get some propaganda footage. You may have seen the film clip - a round French pop-up gun turret is being shelled very heavily and is eventually knocked out. I believe I saw the footage in the old "World at War" series back in the 70's but I'm sure it's around somewhere else.

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by Liam:

you're right it was a Belgian Fort,

this was some time ago they showed the bombed out fort and now I recall it was in Belgium not France but the Germans didn't seem to have much of a problem with it, some sort of sneak operation I thought by Paras

gliders.

[Cheese Panzer]

Originally posted by Kuniworth:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Liam:

you're right it was a Belgian Fort,

this was some time ago they showed the bombed out fort and now I recall it was in Belgium not France but the Germans didn't seem to have much of a problem with it, some sort of sneak operation I thought by Paras

gliders. </font>

[Liam]

Ok, WW2 was pretty massive but the actual destruction of a Fort on the Maginot was never spoken of

I have watched films about it, it was self supportive, expensive, big budget for the French, probably kicking off the Maginot boot, the French would've have full Strength fighting units and another army or two for the frontline. Problem is still their doctrine, but the very nature of the Maginot was the defensive doctrine

I heard the French soldiers were not well payed, were not high in morale at the outbreak of the war. There were lots of problems, the Maginot was probably seen as France's Ace in the sleeve, had it extended to Belgium in Game terms all the way up to the coast would the Axis been able to break it? No!

Is that realistic? Probably not. The Axis probably could've broken the Maginot line with a lot of cost... there is no way in the game you can break it at all frontally and entrenched French units, 1 breakthrough isn't quite enough and is chancey timewise

"How expensive was the Maginot Line?"

"If Degaulle and men like him were supported in the French High Command how would the War have gone in the West for the Germans?"

"perhaps you cannot point the finger at Chamberlain and quiet nations like the USA, it was afterall the responsability of nations like France to keep Germany in check."

"How come France did not support Il Duce with the German annexation of Austria?"

Paraphrazing the Mouse, "Germany is a country of Murderers, there is no way we will let them take Austria!" As Italians mobilized for war

Big questions folks, perhaps SC2 scenario starting in 1936 with fast gameturns and political chits alone would be intrigueing?

[jon_j_rambo]

The French had 2000 so-called soldiers in the drunk tank at anyone time. That's the ones that even get thrown in, think of all the others drunk. Historical fact, not a dig. Bottom line, hitting the bottle causes problems.

[Guest Mike]

Yes...and so what?