Maginot Line

[jon_j_rambo]

So what? Give not place to the flesh. Drunkeness is not a good thing, especially if you're trying defend your nation. The Buntas had more discipline & organizationk, which is the opposite giving head to the bottle.

[Cheese Panzer]

Wow! 2000? Really? Out of, what, a million and a half? Shocking! No wonder they lost.

[Lars]

Originally posted by Yogi:

In virtually all other games covering WWII France the Maginot line is virtually inpenitrable. In fact in many games it is not even attackable at all.

In SC2 the Axis can be quite succesful in attacking the line and the AI does so regularly. I've been a bit surprised how weak the line is. My question is; Is this a "flaw" in the game and not realistic or is this the way it should be?

It's the way it should be. 1st Army penetrated the Maginot Line when they attacked in Operation Tiger.

[Rolend]

France was in a total mess before the war, both economically and politically. Heck there was a very large portion of French society, well even quite a few English that wanted to join the Axis and fight the Communist. If Hitler had not been such a totally detestable psychopath world history might of been different.

By the way under those conditions what were the Brits thinking when they sent the BEF knowing the French situation??? The second biggest mistake they made in the war IMO, only out done by puting Monty in charge of anything other then latrine officer

Back on subject, wasn't it Patton who said something like? "If man can over come natures greatest obstacles how stupid of us to believe we can't over come man made ones." With the state France was in at the start of the war I don't care if they had made the Maginot Line ring the country twice the Germans would of rolled them.

[TaoJah]

Originally posted by Rolend:

France was in a total mess before the war, both economically and politically. ... With the state France was in at the start of the war I don't care if they had made the Maginot Line ring the country twice the Germans would of rolled them.

You seem to forget that the French were at that time a very war-torn nation. They had to keep troops all over the world (the two little corpses in the game do not reflect this too well, IMHO)plus they had alot of casualities and economic losses in WWI and there weren't alot of young men at the time of WWII, due to the very low birth-rates during WWI.

Compare it with the US being invaded in -say- 1960, after 400.000 of their soldiers being killed in WWII and only a very low number of 20-year old to join the army.

I know that bashing the French is a pretty popular sport among certain Americans, with their "freedom-fries" in their hands, but perhaps you should go visit the Statue of Liberty and see who build it. Or read a bit about who helped the US get indenpendacy from the UK, long before their other colonies got their independancy.

Not to mention that France put alot of effort in their border with Germany, as they were required to do so under the Versailles treatement. On top of that : the Low Countries were supposed to be totally neutral, as neutral as Switserland, so there were very good reasons to presume that that part of the border was safe, until it was too late to do anything about it.

All this to say : history would have played out ALOT different when the Maginot Line would not have been build, perhaps the Low Countries would even have stayed neutral.

[Yogi]

Well, it sounds like some feel the line should be stronger in the game, but others feel that the line was overrated and is displayed properly. Maybe if the Germans had known that they would have planned a different offemsive.

Either way, I did enjoy the remarks and discussion.

I wonder if some of the playtesters or Hubert could enlighten me as to if this was an intentional decision to have the line be portrayed as it is in the game, or if perhaps a future update will strengthen it?

[Von Epps]

I think entrenchment is the easiest answer here. Historically, it would be the right thing to do. Even though attacks could be made to lower that entrenchment, those would be costly, at first, and that is realistic, and subsequent attacks would reflect the decreased state of readiness, and capability that a sustained attack would inflict.

My opinion is that no position can be totally protected against a determined foe with resources. Experienced war gamers know that offensive operational success is largely based on striking where your opponent is weak and vulnerable, and you are strong. If Germany is strong enough to concentrate it's efforts on rolling up the defensive fortifications on the border, I think it should cost them, but not be impossible. If WWII taught us anything, it was that mobile forces have the advantage over static positions, especially in defense.

[Rolend]

@TaoJah You are correct and I did not mean it as an insult to the French, Just saying how I saw the conditions in Europe before the war started. After WWI the French really didn't have the will or the means to fight another war so soon and can you really blame them?

I will say however that had the French and English not been so hard on the Germans on peace terms for WWI there may never of been a WWII.

I would leave the Line as it is in the game, it is not too easy and not to hard and really plays a small role in the over all conflict.

[Guest Mike]

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

So what? Give not place to the flesh. Drunkeness is not a good thing, especially if you're trying defend your nation. The Buntas had more discipline & organizationk, which is the opposite giving head to the bottle.

ah....so this shows that...er........I'm still confused - what has religous drivel got to do with SC2?? :confused: :confused:

[jon_j_rambo]

@Rolend --- Very nice take, son. You're absolutely right, the majority of those European companies were Nazis or lovers of them while the tide was rolling.

@S.Organ --- Dude, having your troops drunk is not a good think. Obviously, that act hinders the fighting ability & moral. The French Army was very poorly motivated, if at all. With 2000+ daily in the drunk tank, you're in a bad situation compared to the German Army. So the question is, how many can you have in your camp before the yeast infects the others? What is the acceptable amount of losers? An effective fighting forces isn't numbers alone as you know.

Those who which to fight, come to the river & lap like dogs. --- Gideon

[ May 10, 2006, 03:11 PM: Message edited by: jon_j_rambo ]

[Guest Mike]

How many were in the drunk tanks of various other armies at the time?

[Yogi]

So the question is, how many can you have in your camp before the yeast infects the others?

So are you suggesting that the problem was rampant yeast infections in the French Army?

[Rolend]

Just the fact that '2000' were in the drunk tank does not mean your army can't fight. However I think it is an indicator of the general moral of your army. My understanding is that it was a lot more then just 2000 in a drunk tank but that army wide drinking and moral issues were VERY serious problems for the French.

So they lacked any kind of leadership, many didn't even want a war and moral of the regular troops, army wide was very bad. You really think some static line no matter how long/deep was going to change the out come. I think not.

[Lars]

Originally posted by Yogi:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />So the question is, how many can you have in your camp before the yeast infects the others?

So are you suggesting that the problem was rampant yeast infections in the French Army? </font>

[Yogi]

Originally posted by Lars:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Yogi:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />So the question is, how many can you have in your camp before the yeast infects the others?

So are you suggesting that the problem was rampant yeast infections in the French Army? </font>

[Desert Dave]

Lots of yeast in beer, and those blonde, buxom barmaids are an obvious infection vector.

Hmmm... I'm sure bar-maids everywhere,

Then or now, at war

Or in an infrequent peace,

Blonde and buxom, or

Slight dark and feisty,

Will appreciate the simplistic implication!

IMHO,

Oft-times, a dumb one with a gun,

Presumes illicit liberties

Where, really

There should be - none.

[Lars]

Oh, settle down Dave. Just a joke.

[LampCord]

Originally posted by Rolend:

wasn't it Patton who said something like? "If man can over come natures greatest obstacles how stupid of us to believe we can't over come man made ones."

It was something like:

"Fixed fortifications are monuments to man's stupidity. If we can move armies accross oceans and mountains, nothing built by man can stand in our way."

Of course, whenever I hear that I always think back to Hannibal. He crossed the Mediteranean Sea, the Alps and then was stopped by the walls of Rome.

There are of course, many other examples...

[Desert Dave]

Oh, settle down Dave. Just a joke.

No need to patronize, Lars,

I don't need for you

To "counsel" me.

Now, or ever.

And, ah, tra-la,

I am not in the least "unsettled."

Merely pointing out a sexist remark, is all.

A kind of... reminder

That these sorts of things are passe, eh?

[LampCord]

Originally posted by Desert Dave:

Merely pointing out a sexist remark, is all.

A kind of... reminder

That these sorts of things are passe, eh?

What? We can't make fun of busty blonde barmaids anymore? That's what we've come to in our culture?

That's it. Someone take me out in a field and give me a mercifull end! That is not a world I want to live in!

[Desert Dave]

What? We can't make fun of busty blonde barmaids anymore? That's what we've come to in our culture?

Don't play the deliberate idiot LampCord.

The objection was to depicting

Bar-maids as purveyors of Man-destroying, or

At least IRRITATING... disease.

As though these low-status

Sorts of women were "sex toys" at first

And human-beings second, or fourth or

According to some chest-beaters, never.

LOL

The Patriarchal Condition is safely perpetuated

So long as you condone such petty villification.

And, by the by,

Look where all these WISE and cunning

Patriarchs have gotten us?

Look around, Bad Cat,

What you see?

Being respectful towards others

Is REALLY tough, I can appreciate,

But,

Giver 'er a try, what say?

[Desert Dave]

Here, this might help some of ya out:

__________________________________________

Come gather 'round people

Wherever you roam

And admit that the waters

Around you have grown

And accept it that soon

You'll be drenched to the bone.

If your time to you

Is worth savin'

Then you better start swimmin'

Or you'll sink like a stone

For the times they are a-changin'.

Come writers and critics

Who prophesize with your pen

And keep your eyes wide

The chance won't come again

And don't speak too soon

For the wheel's still in spin

And there's no tellin' who

That it's namin'.

For the loser now

Will be later to win

For the times they are a-changin'.

Come senators, congressmen

Please heed the call

Don't stand in the doorway

Don't block up the hall

For he that gets hurt

Will be he who has stalled

There's a battle outside

And it is ragin'.

It'll soon shake your windows

And rattle your walls

For the times they are a-changin'.

Come mothers and fathers

Throughout the land

And don't criticize

What you can't understand

Your sons and your daughters

Are beyond your command

Your old road is

Rapidly agin'.

Please get out of the new one

If you can't lend your hand

For the times they are a-changin'.

The line it is drawn

The curse it is cast

The slow one now

Will later be fast

As the present now

Will later be past

The order is

Rapidly fadin'.

And the first one now

Will later be last

For the times they are a-changin'.

-- Words & Music, Bob Dylan (1963)

________________________________________

Main-line,

Like soporific to a hop-head,

Is this: "don't criticize

what you can't understand"

Dig it?

Gotta keep up, else

You get left in the lurch, eh? LOL!

[Lars]

Hey, can only work with the comedic material given. You know, the Germans could have gotten the yeast infections by drinking the beer.

So we have all these possibilities before we start a stampede towards the clitoris, Watson - John Cleese

Threw that last in there for rambo.

[Desert Dave]

Hey, can only work with the comedic material given.

Still... I don't get it Lars, hmmm, WHY

Would you need... "blonde & buxom"

Stuck in there if it's not

An implication about... oh well,

I'll keep on a'tryin, but

I wouldn't quit my day job, just yet,

I were you!

Wait!

You HAVE been posting mostly in the day,

So,

You MUST work at night, since,

No boss would let you do all that, ummm,

Posting and game playing

ON the job... would they? OK,

NOW I get it!

Yer a pimp!

And,

A smug one at that.

Imagine, a simple smug implicating pimp!

Least,

Having to stare at that wretchen wrothen word

peng

For awhile now,

I've come to understand, finally,

What it means,

Rather,

That it's - an ac-ro-nym hymn for:

.... pretty, elitist, no guts ...

Now,

You got plenty of material!

So's you can!

Just like in 'em other threads,

Mull it over real good

And decide - O boy!

"Who - rambo this time? or, what to make fun of next?"

(... din't mis-spel nuthin', so's I'm

safe their, whew!)

(... see, THAT was the give-away, how I knew

you weren't always, or only just politely ... "joking it" )

Ennybody got some 'em boxing gloves?

Me and pretty boy got to go 'round! LOL! :cool:

[Lars]

Ya know, if I have to explain why "busty blonde" is appropriate for a German barmaid instead of "busty redhead", it's no longer a joke but a learning experience.

And that just ain't my scene, dude.