Keeping the Brits honest

[The Great Santini]

With the Brits doing things like grabbing Norway while France is being conquered or sneaking into North Africa shortly afterwards and leaving a large part of their navy or even army in Egypt in anticipation of a German attack there is there anything the Germans can do to see if an early Sealion is viable? Would building a bomber early on to scout England and Egypt be feasible? Can the Germans go for England without going to Africa first if England is underdefended? Just how weak must England be if the Brits are playing these games for a successful Sealion? Alternatively, is there a way for the Brits to con the Germans into thinking England is undefended and inducing an unsuccessful Sealion?

[ April 22, 2007, 10:18 AM: Message edited by: The Great Santini ]

[The Great Santini]

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[ April 23, 2007, 10:22 AM: Message edited by: The Great Santini ]

[Liam]

Keeping the Brits Honest, is really difficult. You tip readiness by taking any of the objectives that may keep them honest, you can risk diplomatic success at a cost to yourself. If your really wanting to hurt the UK, you can pray in some Naval Techs but they're very difficult to acquire and pricey. Still won't make you unstoppable...

The UK is usually only threatened by a weak Player, best to ignore it and give it less by making swift and decisive decisions. Also be weary of the location of it's Navy for it'll do in any sort of amphibious operation you may have, plus severely damage you if you attempt to move in certian narrow land areas...

Other than that, you can outproduce her 3 to 1, so do not worry, just invest and build for bigger fish unless your Fish is Great Britian. But good luck, with that fleet and the USSR/USA you will not likely win with taking her out alone... not later in the game anyway

[foko]

I think the easiest way to keep GB down, is buy 2 german bomber and bombard Liverpool.

Wenn Liverpool is < 5 the convoy can not be unloaded and GB is getting max 50 MPP.

When starting sommer 40, doing this konsequent the poor Tommies will not survive long term

[Desert Dave]

Originally posted by foko:

I think the easiest way to keep GB down, is buy 2 german bomber and bombard Liverpool.

Wenn Liverpool is < 5 the convoy can not be unloaded and GB is getting max 50 MPP.

When starting sommer 40, doing this konsequent the poor Tommies will not survive long term

The Man with a plan.

Very surprised more folks don't do this. :confused:

I'd imagine,

UK could use another port,

Farther north, let's say - Glasgow?

**AND,

I would have it where it is NOT automatic

That ALL convoy income immediately ceases

Merely because the port is less than 5.

The income could be "pro-rated" according

To Port size, IE,

Size 5> would allow 100% income

Size 4 = 80%

Size 3 = 60%

Size 2 = 40%

Size 1 = 20%

Size 0 = 0%

[... ALL activities don't cease COMPLETELY

just because of some bomb damage,

that's hardly realistic or likely]

As is, yer right foko,

The VERY apparently UNDER utilised

GErman bombers

CAN indeed cut them convoys fair easily.

Yeah yeah, I know,

Invest in AA.

Yeah yeah I keep hearing - the game

Is balanced as is,

Don't!

Do nuthin!

LOL, yea, it MIGHT be to those

Who've got the thing gamed.

Well, you either keep moving & improving

Or you get stuck with... ugly exploits.

Tell you what, I'll provide escorts,

And trade damage with the Spits,

And knock them ports down

Below 5,

And keep 'em there for the duration.

It ain't so hard, nor as costly

As you might suppose.

[ April 23, 2007, 05:18 AM: Message edited by: Desert Dave ]

[hellraiser]

buying 2 bombers (perhaps an italian one as well) it is a good tactic vs GB but those mpps spent on bombers (and perhaps bomber tech) will make you weaker in russia (think that is 6-7 upgraded corps you're missing there) and if you're slow to capture and kill things in russia, the commies will get very strong eventually. Perhaps if you plan to knock out GB completely and play more defensively than usual in russia, it may work, who knows - it depends on the level of the opposition - if you play against the AI, it works 100% - if you play against a top dog, it won't work so well

[foko]

The first german bomber costs you 285 Mpp. It think the next 300Mpp

When saving the money the first bomber will be avaible june 40 the second july.

After placing there are 4-5 turns clear weather where it should be possible to bomb Liverpool down to 0.

And then E is redused to 40-50 Mpp. A failure of 50-100 MPP per turn possible. missing canada & Egypt Convios fore sure.

So this will costs E at least 500-1000 MPP each year disabling it from every operation.

[Terif]

There are a lot of things possible, the question is only if it is worth the investments and as Hellraiser already said: it depends on the opponent and its level of opposition / game experience .

Against the AI or an unexperienced players you can do pretty much everything, including building bombers as Germany - but against an experienced one it is usually not such a good idea :

Buying bombers in 1939 means no mpps for research and diplo which can backfire easily and can be a problem later in the game, especially against Russia (additionally to the missing mpps used for the bombers).

Besides, UK usually only looses its canadian mpps from the convois (= 15-30 mpps depending on the season of the year; an experienced Axis player regularly takes Africa), USA still keeps its mpps, they are not lost. Attacking Liverpool port is much more expensive (especially if it is defended by UK fighters) for the german bomber and air than those few mpps lost for UK .

Only if Axis don´t go to Africa and UK conquers it together with Iraq (so it looses Egypt + Iraq convois too with a disabled port) it may be worth to bomb Liperpool port out of order (or in case of a planed Sealion..)...in the end it is a question of which way you want to go and which strategies both sides have chosen - they all have their advantages and disadvantages and can be countered...buying bombers can be useful at times (mostly if you plan to abandon Africa or want to Sealion England), but against a prepared enemy or in the wrong situation it may not be such a wise idea...

[Baron]

I just lost a game to Rambo where he did me in with rockets.

Cheaper than bombers

Placed in fortifications built by engineers

Well worth the tech invested

Arguably a better investment than aircraft of any sort at higher tech levels

Bombed the snot out of the Brits

Very impressive strategy!

[foko]

I think the most important is to keep the GB down and the German have time as long the US and Russia are not in war.

This is the only period in Game where Germany gets more MPP than the allies.

When you do Africa then the US + Udssr activation is raising.

Expensive: I do not think it is very expensive. 1940 there is the german Luftwaffe. which can draw the fire of the figthers. The bombers can attack without enemy interceptors.

The most import is that GB is reduces to 40-50 MPP disabling it from the most operations.

It can refit its figthers, thats it.

And a bomber is a bomber, it is anywhere useful to have

PS: @Terfif: When you do the wrong against a prepeared enemy everything will end in a desaster

eg. Bombing Stalingrad -> no Oil from Caucasus

[Bromley]

Originally posted by foko:

eg. Bombing Stalingrad -> no Oil from Caucasus

Really? Doesn't fit with the way I understand supply rules, but I might be wrong. I'll have to consider German bombers more seriously if it's true.

[Liam]

I do not think that Stalingrad will prevent Oil shipments North, in fact cutting off the Caucasus as far as I recall doesn't even reduce the Oil to 5 if your Capitol is in the Urals! As I recall

Bombing Liverpool is an exotic move, I've seen it done to me once. I really loathed it... It's expensive and maybe worth it IF you get good dice, no enemy opposition... Otherwise that Bomber is really expensive and what about the Bad Weather Months?

[foko]

I am not defintily sure about bombing Stalingrad.

But I think it should be possible to bomb it to 0, then the supply to Caucasus should be reduced.

In the bad weather turns there is no bombing. Okt - May -

So the german should bomb in Okt to 0 than 4 turns there is nothing.

[Terif]

Buying bombers is one of many possible strategies for Germany with advantages and disadvantages - and if it is the right supplementation to your main strategy, why not .

In the end it is like with every strategy: If you can surprise the enemy and/or he doesn´t know how to react you will be successful. But it can also be countered and has disadvantages, so if you meet the wrong opponent this strategy will reduce your chances to win. In any case it is no game breaker one way or the other - it will only shift balance a bit in one direction...yours or the enemy one .

P.S.: bombing Stalingrad (or any other cities) has no effect on supply of other cities or ressources. USSR also has supply centers in Caucasus, so even conquering/cutting of Stalingrad also doesn´t reduce supply in Caucasus - they can supply themselves .

[foko]

Hi Terif,

How would you counter the german bomber tatic till barbarossa as GB?

The bombers have range 8 so they can be placed save in france. The german have 3 Luftwaffe, which should be able to draw the fire of the E figther or 2 if GB transfers it Desert Air force.

What would you do against a german bomber till 1942 as GB?

BW

[Terif]

Pretty simple:

- place the Royal Airforce in Scottland with HQ so the german fighters can´t draw the fire away.

- upgrade Manchester port with AA

- keep the Royal Navy around Middle England

- use the bomber as spotter from the mountains or London, so if Axis places units at the coast, Royal Navy can move in and bomb them away.

Since UK will hold Brest after France has fallen, Germany first has to conquer it before it can really use the bombers against Manchester port or to research Long Range (and buying bombers already reduced tech research..). So usually either the summer of 1940 already is gone before Manchester port can be attacked or Axis have to sacrifice mpps (and often 1-2 units) to conquer Brest earlier.

In any case, attacking the port for itself is already pretty expensive for the bombers, if they are intercepted by UK fighters even more. Germany only can draw the fire away if the airfleets also attack Manchester (since the UK air is positioned in Scotland). This for itself would already cause double the damage for the german air than for UK - but they also would have to stay at the french coast (even with LR 1..) where Royal Navy would happily train their cannons on them... .

All in all Germany will in average loose around 60 - even more if you count the collateral damage - mpps each turn to keep the port out of order and even much more at the beginning to get it down to zero first...lots of mpps spent, not much gained if UK keeps most of its fleet near the Home Island and builds some corps to protect it against a Sealion.

When Barbarossa starts, Germany will usually have to move its bombers away or Germany will have no air support in Russia if they have to keep their airfleets west to protect the bombers...which usually doesn´t work anyway since western Allies air is usually much stronger than the german one at this stage. So in the end the port is not really many turns out of order - depending on the axis aggressiveness and will to sacrifice mpps, maximum from late Summer 1940 till late Summer 1941.

Even more important will be the strategic impact as building the bombers means less tech and less conquered ressources since the german forces are bind against UK .

[Desert Dave]

There are a few flaws in above mentioned

Tactics, which,

I won't relate in toto since I might

Have to play - the Myth ist?

Once the draw for the future

Slingers VS Gunners

Super-SC tournament is set.

Though,

I'm more than a little dis-satisified

With CA's having ANY shore-bombardment

Capability (... should be = 0),

And BB's - merely "1," IMHO.

Not only that,

But... may be - as Hubert has ALREADY

Suggested,

Different sorts of Bombers next time around?

Who knows, we'll have to see what

Sleek winged creature-machine

Rolls down the run-way, eh?

Besides,

Re-taking Brest is good "experience training"

For the GErman fighter/interceptors,

Not to mention,

Same being true for naval bombers

Cracking down!

In shrieking! lightning strikes

Upon them cumbersome old

UK Battle Wagens.

No air umbrella for them

Obsolete dread-NOTS, I guess?

Air being hid a'way up in Scot Highlands

It seems?

LOTS of spry antidote to above, as I say.

MOST of which shall remain secreted

In ein kleine box with a ribbon

Wound 'round it,

Just in case, ah,

In the event of later surprise.

Playing Terif,

One SURELY would need ALL the tiniest

Advantages one might muster, yep,

Mister Bo - with them get-go riffs.

Since,

As we suspect - ain't NO LUCK involved,

And this particular Cat ain't gone CHOOSE

To lose,

Should the tourney draw

Set such-like match-play stage.

[ChrisND]

I love having a bomber, German or Italian, for the Axis on the Eastern Front. It's a large, wide open area that is tough to supply fighters, and the threat of a surprise Russian attack is ever-present. This makes the spotting range of a bomber invaluable, IMHO.

[Bromley]

DD reminded me of something I've been meaning to check. When bombarding units (rather than resources and possibly units on resources), do naval units use their soft/tank/air/bomber values rather than their strategic?

i.e. is a CA just as good as a BB for shore bombardment of units?

[foko]

Holding Brest means losing a Corps forever. Supply 5. one bomb on habour one on town.

Fighting in front of 2 Bombers and 3 Luftwaffe, 3 Kreuzer, 3 UBoot + Bismarck is not optimal

Yesterday in a other game it was 44. German has 13-15 elite Me 262. 2 german bombes + 1 italian

Bombing Liverpool, Do not know his exact loses, but he bombs every 2-3 turns.

Costing me about 55 for Canada (no other convoys) and no US Support. This means GB must fight the hole summer with about 80 MPP per turn.

Disabling me from any operations.

It should be done like Desert Dave said

Size 5 would allow 100% income

Size 4 = 80%

Size 3 = 60%

Size 2 = 40%

Size 1 = 20%

Size 0 = 0%

Liverpool is the nerve of GB.

[Liam]

Terif's defensive strategy for Great Britian is a very fine strategy especially for defense of the Island too... You can abandon Great Britian and take North Africa if you want, your Convoys will arrive there from the USA and go to the USSR. It is relatively easy to take Libya if you go in force early enough, especially if the Axis are doing Sea Lion.

But not the only strategy, when the weather is bad, the Port will rebuild and you can research AA and really hurt any Bombers!

It's not the best strategy because the Axis do not start with a Bomber! They should really get one in this game, but I suppose that the creators didn't want them overpowered. Plus bombers are deadly on other targets. Italian Bombers I find are fine for reducing strength of Strategic resources all over the map. Good vs Naval Targets... Great for Recon... Far more valuable than trying to fight the RAF, AntiAir Tech and stick themselves on 1 target!

Diversification of Targets is all.. Just like the same U-Boat isn't smart to take the same route every time and raid in the same place, same with bombers, unless you suspect a real weak defense.

Personally, these days, the money spent on a bomber is safer spent on a Engineer who can build 20 Forts that the Western Allies have to crack their Air on while you deal with the USSR. That's money better spent on the all...

Remeber even if you use Bombers to reduce MPP values to lower a Unit Supply below 5, the build limits will not hurt the Western Allies so much, they can afford losses more readily and wait to rebuild since their Islands and not under direct threat... They can afford to rebuild from the bottom up.

[Blashy]

Originally posted by foko:

Holding Brest means losing a Corps forever. Supply 5. one bomb on habour one on town.

You would not loose it forever.

Too loose a unit forever it has to be killed when at ZERO of supply.

A unit on a city will always have a supply of no lower than one when destroyed.

But it will cost you full price to rebuild.

[Bromley]

Does "losing it forever" reduce the number of that unit type that you can have on the map?

foko. If bombing the Brest area, only the town needs to be bombed as the port will already be at 5 and will be 1 tile away from the corps.

[arado234]

Foko, the brits would also position thier carriers around liverpool to help defend it.Now the germans are out numbered.