Review/suggestions for the 39-46 Global scenario

[John DiFool the 2nd]

Just won as Axis in September '45, having easily dispensed with Russia, and then Sea Lion-ing Britian, on Expert +1. In the meantime both Australia and India (well "both" India's actually-see below) were taken by the Axis forces, and Asia was basically all Axis, except for Thailand and Vietnam.

The scenario, if anyone is so bold as to spend a week playing it to completion like I did, is intriguing, and presents many more strategic decisions than vanilla SC, at least for certain countries. But it has a number of flaws and "quirks", some of which aren't really the fault of the scenario or its maker, but rather the game engine. Here we go...

1. There are "two" India's on the map! One at the far eastern edge, and another at the far western one, each with a Ceylon. When I first noticed that (3 years into the war) I was like WTF?

2. As mentioned in the other thread, the USSR needs significantly more resources. I had the 3 main Euro Russian cities by the end of summer '42 (historical Barba start date), at which time the Russian army was hugely outnumbered by the Germans. Given the latter's big edge in tech and experience by that time, the remaining Russian units were easily swept aside, with the official end coming at the end of 1944 only because of supply issues.

Compared to vanilla, while the Germans have the same number of mines/oil (actually they have an extra oil near the Belgian border), the Russians have a grand total of ONE mine in the Urals, and two Caucasus oils. One mine in Siberia, that's it.

3. Forces. The scenario makes no adjustment for the larger map, such that the force pools for the original powers are about the same as that for vanilla (England being an exception). [JJR will get pissed warning] The US pool is almost ridiculously puny, as compared to Germany, a country with about half the population, such that they will never be able to go on the offensive on their two theatres simultaneously.

4. AI. Hoo boy they had some problems. I'll start with the US Navy, which except for a couple of subs was almost wholly absent from any activity in the Pacific. Come end game and what do I see? A huge fleet sitting at anchor in the Atlantic, one which would have crushed what I thought was a pretty sizable IJN, if it only dared cross the Panama Canal and come out and challenge me.

The Chinese army also had issues. When the Japanese wiped out their frontier garrison all I saw were an occasional unit or two sneak forward and hit one of my cities, then slink back again. I assumed that Britian (the parent major) was using the MPPs for other more pressing needs. End the game and in the far rear "pocket" there were a dozen Chinese units, which could have retaken my cities at any time.

Odd side issue: "China" units are not selectable in the build menu at the end of the game, like Finland or Manchukuo are for Germany and Japan respectively.

The US probably needs a few points invested into Gun Laying Radar (Naval Tech) and Sub and Anti-Sub tech. No real issues with the tech AI here other than that.

No North Africa invasion-instead dozens of British/American units died trying to assault a fortified "Paris" line-they even had some more units on the way which passed my seagoing Panzers who were sailing for London. Obviously no Pacific AI scripts.

5. Convoys. Japan never gets any convoys for Borneo or Sumatra (they do get the pre-war one for Java). In mid game I added up what Japan was getting vs. what she should be getting, and there was a big 30-40 point gap (tho running the numbers they didn't add up right-I'll be starting another thread on that). Anyway Japan should have those convoys, and there's some others here and there that should be in there too (perhaps extra Lend-Lease routes to Vladivostok and/or Iraq, and one from Australia to Japan if conquered).

6. Canada is lost to the Allies when either Australia or India (the two "Commonwealths"-sorry I took both on the same turn) are conquered, so I was befuddled wondering why I was seeing American troops "invading" Canada until I made the connection.

7. Forts. The Axis have a tough time taking Egypt because the front is just narrower enough that that El Alamein fort has a big "Stop" sign on its flag. That may be a good thing of course.

The forts on the various Pacific Islands are a royal pain to take, at least until a patch comes along allowing Marines and assaults from the sea. After trying vainly to take a couple of them (I got one only because there was an air unit on it, easily killed by my CVs) I gave up after several hundred points worth of damage to my ships and one pesky one-point corps sitting there in the ruins thumbing his nose at my hapless embarked armies.

I did enjoy the scenario but it definitely needs more work. Looking forward to the WaW version, hopefully with most of these issues dealt with.

BTW this would be playable as a 6 player scenario in PBEM, as all it requires is swapping the save game to your next ally so he can do his thing, and so on and so on. If everybody is committed and prompt with their turns, it could get done, tho perhaps for brevity's sake we might need a November '41 scenario (Pearl Harbor could be simulated via a morale/readiness/supply penalty inflicted on the ships there).

[ November 07, 2007, 07:18 PM: Message edited by: John DiFool the 2nd ]

[SeaMonkey]

This is exactly what is needed to evolve this scenario into a viable SC campaign. Great feedback John.

Hopefully, soon I will be starting a game against one of my usual human opponents as we'll need that perspective also.

Hope to see more postings on this campaign as it should replace FW as the primary SC competitive basis.

Multi-player will raise the bar to a new team level of contested bragging rights, looking forward to the new age of SC.

[targul]

Nice write up.

I looked at those island also and the US in forts was just too much no way would I try those bad boys.

I have been playing against my friend so AI was not relevant but I am sorry there is none yet in Asia but that is kinda as expected at this point.

[PowerGmbH]

Thanks John for this feedback!!

I really hope we all can have soon more fine tuning for this map. So trying to set some details in this map better here some comments and questions:

1) the 2 Indias are required, as East commonwealth did declare war to Japan only on December 41. this One India is concentratetd in Helping Europe Scenario, and the other is for Pacific.

2) YES. ok. i also thougt of some more Mines near URAL. how about 2-3?

3) OK USA will get PLENTY of GI s for the next , just also tell which ones (Ships ) have wrong names, or maybe some listing of Tank or Land Units who played a role in the different scenarios. I had searched a lot in Wiki for some famous ships, but any help is useful. so dont hesitate to send me listings of troop names.

4) this is to Hubert to see for...

5) Borneo MPP go directly to Japan without Convoy. Problem of the Netherland-East Indies COnvoy is that the "using %" are set a little too low after surrender. some fine tuning will be done ther, shure. Anyway if there are no convoys, Japan also getts all the MPP as following the Effectivenes limit of 50%. So australian MPP are shure to Japan.

6)YES! right. All govenrments of Commonwealth will FLEE to Canada if lost Australia f.ex. better so, no?

7) difficult issue this Islands in the Pacific. in WAW i think it will be better to replace the Fortress with a "Tropical Village" city. all at the end was about to have the supply of 5 minimun on the islands. i think with Villages the Islands should be easier to take. maybe i ll set an aditional "land" field for invasion if the Marine Invasion doesnt work.

for to see if playable with more players, this is an idea to forward to Hubert.

also would be happy to hear about results H vs H games.

Greets

David

[John DiFool the 2nd]

I have to go to work (grr usually don't work in the mornings), but what I saw was Canada switching to Axis (German) control when the other Commonwealths were conquered, and the US invading Canada to take it back (but not "liberate" it). I'll tackle the other issues (and yes ship names will be one thing I'll help with) when I get back, 12 hours from now...

[Hubert Cater]

I'd like to say thanks to John for his feedback as well. Also considering the limitations of the SC2 engine it is simply amazing just how well this campaign does play and what a fine job David did overall .

That being said there is always room for improvement and based on your feedback much of this can be resolved by moving the game to the WaW engine. In the meantime there was really no reason to hold this campaign back and it was my pleasure to add in some AI for solo play and release it in a patch for the Blitzkrieg version of SC2.

For the remaining items there are already plans in the works to expand on what has been provided via the WaW engine and these include additional country slots, i.e. this way we can probably have Canada, India, Australia in game (if desired) and at least eliminate the double India seen on the map. Lots of ideas and I think you guys will be VERY HAPPY with what we have in store for with respect to future of this campaign.

Hubert

[SeaMonkey]

Without a doubt, accolades to you and David, an absolutely incredible creation.

[MasterChief]

Great job and solid feedback. The item that stuck out to me was the comment on amphibious landings. I know it was often mentioned in SC2 threads. Sit a unit on a beach and the beach is permanently locked until you bomb or shell it to death. If he is continuly reinforcing the unit then you will never be able to land. Thae game needs the ability to make amphibious assualts against beach garrisions.

[John DiFool the 2nd]

Back. Glad to see the scenario designer drop by.

Russia will need a heckuva lot more than that. Germany in vanilla and in Global each have about the same number of MPPs (the extra oil well makes up for a few missing cities here and there). Russia however even including her Asian holdings has about a whopping 200 points less in Global than in vanilla. She is missing about a ten mines and oil wells all told, and that doesn't count anything in Siberia (to be fair I think many of the mines in the Urals in vanilla are meant to represent what is in Siberia).

I, being the ignoramus that I am, just now realized that only one convoy can exist between a minor and a major. If the next patch (WaW) can let multiple routes exist, then the Japanese should, as they did historically, have a devil of a time protecting their convoy lanes from US subs. With just one convoy tho it is much easier for them to patrol with their ASW units and protect it. I dislike the dualistic approach where some MPPs must be shipped and be subject to interdiction while others just magically teleport to the home country safe and sound.

Ships. You probably don't want to put everything in there, so all names shouldn't be used. Any good reference should suffice. For example, Here is a Wikipedia entry on US carriers listed chronologically.

[ November 08, 2007, 05:58 PM: Message edited by: John DiFool the 2nd ]

[Micheal Wittman]

Yes kudos and high fives to the Developing Gentlemen!!!!!!! and awesome support, I hope this works out well for yawl's, my friends and I feel we

are getting closer to that dream game, thank you!

[PowerGmbH]

John;

thanks for the comments an tipps. I am for the moment in a Balancing calculation statistics, and checking how much Axis need to take to have same MPP as Allies. As you may have seen, USA is roughly VERY strong.

So if i remember well i had once seen a listing of Allies VS Axis Forces, and the capacities of Axis Germany was roughly the same as USSR . France about less tan 1/3 of Germany, GB about 1/3 and Italy 20%. USA instead looked heavy with about 250%. but this makes it not balanced...even if Japan is set roughly like Germany.

I think one help is also to Upgrade/strengthen the Convoys from USA to URSS, because there is not even the space to place so much Mines... - )

[xwormwood]

Originally posted by John DiFool the 2nd:

... I had the 3 main Euro Russian cities by the end of summer '42 (historical Barba start date)...

uhm, Barbarossa started June 22nd, 1941

:cool:

[ November 09, 2007, 09:23 AM: Message edited by: xwormwood ]

[Bill101]

I'm playing a HvH game at the moment and I am a bit uncomfortable about having China as a UK minor. Unless we can have another major power, perhaps it would be better to make Italy a minor and have China a major?

Also, the fighting between the Kuomintang and Communists is wreaking havoc on the Chinese ability to defend their country.

Something I don't understand is why is China so small, so that whenever the Japanese take a city from the Chinese they are actually liberating it? Having to operate units from the capital to the eastern areas where the Japs are attacking is another drag on the UK's economy.

I do really like this scenario and look forward to a WAW version, it must have been lots and lots of work to produce, and with a little tweaking it will be excellent!

[PowerGmbH]

some details about historic Warmaking Potencial , following http://www.combinedfleet.com/economic.htm

the Global Campaign cannot be balanced anyway if it s tried to make historic, see below:

Country % of Total Warmaking Potential

United States 41.7%

Germany 14.4%

USSR 14.0%

UK 10.2%

France 4.2%

Japan 3.5%

Italy 2.5%

Seven Powers (total) (90.5%)

The Problem with the actual 1.08 China will be solved with WAW possibilities. Really UK can only play defensive in China, trying to hold the Mountains. Anyway, if a Axis-Japanese Player invests too much in China, he will loose against Human anyway, cause China is definitely not the Strategic balancing factor for Japan, so better no to loose too much time as Axis, crimbling snowy chinese Mountains just to get the latest Chinese 5 MPP...._)

[John DiFool the 2nd]

Originally posted by xwormwood:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by John DiFool the 2nd:

... I had the 3 main Euro Russian cities by the end of summer '42 (historical Barba start date)...

uhm, Barbarossa started June 22nd, 1941

:cool: </font>

[xwormwood]

No, i thought that you wanted to tell that you had 3 main Euro Russian cities by the end of summer '42 and that you were so proud about it that you added the info that you had all this accomplished at a date where the historical Operation Barbarossa just had started.

So i misunderstood your lines, sorry for that.

Saying this, i could add that you made it very easy to misunderstand them.

Well, no hard feelings, please, ok?

[John DiFool the 2nd]

Nope.

One more suggestion: having variable length seasonal turns is probably too Euro-centric; it's doubtful the Japanese could capture all their objectives if they declare war on the US/Commonwealth/Dutch on the historical date (December '41). You could compensate for this, on the Russian front, by giving a couple of extra clear turns (or higher chance of same) in May and September.

[PowerGmbH]

John,

you re right, the Winter is too short for the Pacific activities, as they are all after the "Rain-Season" until end october.

I think, the most realistic could be tho have the time factor beeing linear. this simply would signify a "real ugly"-russian winter, with less activity, and more activity on the Pacific side.

you can change this set easily in the settings, i think.

[SeaMonkey]

Hey David, fantastic job on the World map and I like the concept for the port to WaW of providing four tiles for the island hopping scenario.

One thing I would request is the central Pacific chains, Gilberts and Marshalls. Saipan/Tinian could be added to Guam also for a better representation of the Marianas, remember this was a valuable Strategic airbase.

Only other one of significance I would like to see added is the the Palau island chain.

These were the locations of historical Pacific battles, maybe not so significant to the overall conclusion but none the less important.

It gives the Japanese player the chance to evolve the original battle script of providing an outer defensive perimeter of "unsinkable" aircraft carriers.

[Retributar]

Excellent FeedBack!,... it need's to be followed up!.

[SeaMonkey]

Damn it guys, I wasn't going to do this, but I just got to thinking about SPI's PTO mega game which I have in almost new condition, counters are punched.

So I start looking at the map and comparing to the Pacific Global 1.08 map and thinking about the port to WaW.

First thing is you could cut off a bunch of the southernmost tiles just to where you are at the bottom of Africa and Australia, shorten the SA continent and have more North to South area centered on the Equator.

In addition, I retract Palua, to the other island suggestions I want to mention these for thought.

1. Dutch Harbor in the Aleutians (US)

2. Palmyra (US Marine training base)

3. Truk in the Caroline Islands (Japanese)

4. Rabaul, Bismark Archipelago (UK) approximately where Guadalcanal is located presently. Move Guadacanal to the far southern end of Solomons.

5. Take out New Zealand and replace with the New Hebrides, Caledonia, (Noumea port). Large Allied staging base.

6. Fiji is OK, but the US Samoas(combine them with the Phoenix Is.)are equally important for supply base and staging area.

7. Who could forget Midway?

OK I know all these will not be presented with a 4 tile configuration and that's fine. Many of these really don't represent port facilities and some can be single tiles where only SF(special forces) can reside or aircraft based for interdiction and patrol.

Somehow a supply net like the railroads of ETO SC WaW will have to be set up throughout the PTO linking the various island groups.

I will help, I have the game, the maps, the OOB. Now who's got SPI's ETO?

[ November 11, 2007, 07:43 PM: Message edited by: SeaMonkey ]

[PowerGmbH]

to Seamonkey:

what s about Palmyra, i even bought a book about Pacific War, but I never Heard of this...I also didnt hear about Truk in the Caroline. What about this Islands? any Mayor Strategic battle? Plz send Wiki link or so, to see forward for these.

Rabaoul, Dutch Harbour, Fidji, Solomons, Noumea, this all as well As Saipan Okinawa and Iwo Jima is no problem, anyway i almost c'ant await to play a nice Island Hopping Campaign, combined with Russia !!!

[John DiFool the 2nd]

Truk was the major southern Japanese naval base. The US decided to "hop" over it in their island hopping campaign, but quite a few ships were sunk in the lagoon anyway.

[SeaMonkey]

David, glad you are thinking about the changes as I to long for that Pacific feel of island hopping.

Forget Wiki, totally lacking, instead let me send you to the Matrixgames website. There is a game there called "War in the Pacific" by Gary Grigsby. Observe that map, memorize that map, duplicate that map for the Pacific Theater.

I believe Hubert has come very close with the WaW mechanics of providing for an accurate Pacific WW2 simulation. There will need to be some enhancements and we'll have to be imaginative, but the time has come for SC to dwell in the Pacific.