Siberian Transfer Script should be deleted

[Kuniworth]

Hi,

Ive tried to clear out what "siberian units" that were send from the transbaikal, SIberia and Far east region in 1941 in my attempt to get my eastern front game rolling. As you know in the standard scenarios the allied player will get a certain number of tanks and armies as axis comes close enough to certain cities.

However after looking at this its obviously clear that this is not the way it worked out historically. Historically the russians kept transporting division-sized units all autumn to the front and the "siberians" did not arrive en masse to save the day. Quite the contrary the siberian contribution to the battle of Moscow in 1941 was relatively small. And if you read Zhukov's memoirs you will also notice that he dont put that much weight into them as the famous "myth" does.

I will cut in a number of quotes from people Ive discussed this issue with;

"Well, rumours about hordes of siberian troops that saved Moscow during the autumn-winter 1941 are greatly exaggerated. Actually there were rather few "siberian" (this term include those from Transbikalian and Far East) divisions that participated in the battle of Moscow. First of all the movement of forces from East to the european Russia began even before the outbreak of the war. Namely general Lukin's 16th army (5th Mechanized corps, 32th rifle corps and 57th tank division) began to move to the western Ukraine from Tranbaikalian military district in the end of May 1941. After beginning of the war 24th army commanded by general Kalinin was formed at the Siberian military district and recieved the order to move to the area east of Smolensk as the soviet operational plans contemplated. This army included 52th (91, 119, 166 rifle division) and 53th (107, 133, 178 rd) rifle corps. Also 59th tank and 69th motorized division was transferred from Far East Front to the West. At the beginning of the battle of Moscow some of these divisions still were in the West and Reserve fronts. 119th, 133th, 178th rd and 107th motorized division (reformed from 69th md) either were outside the Vyazma cauldron or managed to escape from it. 32th rd from Far East was in the reserve of the 4th army to the west of Tikhvin. At the 5th of October it received the order to move to the Moscow region and then occupied position on the Mozhaisk defence line. After 11th October it was engaged in bitter fighting with german 46th tank corps and suffered great losses but managed to gain time for the organization of the defence of Moscow. In October 1941 several fresh divisions were transferred from Transbaikalian and Far East Fronts to compensate heavy losses in the Vyazma cauldron. 58th tank division participated in the unhappy attempt of counterofensive at 16th November and than in the defensive battle of Klin where it lost almost all of it's tanks. The comander of the division major general Alexander Kotlyarov was so upset by these misfortunes that he committed suicide. 82th motorized division arrived at late October and was committed to battle east of Mozhaisk near the 32th rd. 93th rd was transferred to the 43 army and Beloborodov's 78th rd to the 16 army of the Western front. The latter division fought fiercely against "Das Reich" during the german November offensive near the towns of Istra and Dedovsk and became the 9th guardian rifle division. Newly formed 413th rd from Far East was committed to battle at the beginning of November south-east of Tula, soon 239th rd reformed from 239th motorized division arrived at the same region and was surrounded by Guderian's 2nd Panzer Army in the middle of November but managed to break through. This episode was described briefly in Heinz Guderian's memoires. The 112th tank division commanded by colonel Getman was raised at the Far East after the beginning of the War. In the middle of November it took part in soviet counteroffensive near Aleksin and then was moved southly and in cooperation with 2nd Cavalery corps repelled the german vanguard from the area south of Kashira. This unit took part in the winter offensive and after heavy losses was reformed into the 112th tank brigade.

It should be noted that not all of the units transferred from the East in October 1941 were committed to battle in the vicinty of Moscow. 60th tank, 65th and 92th rifle divisions were moved to the north part of the front and participated in the battle of Tikhvin against german XXXIX corps. As concerns the units from Stavka reserves that were put into action in December and repulsed germans from Moscow's outskirts they were for the most part divisions and brigades raised in the European Russia in autumn 1941."

"There were three fully equipped "siberian" division committed to battle in the Western front till the end of October: 32th rd, 93th rd and 82th mrd. At the second decade of October - the hardest time for the defenders only one of these divisions (32th) was available. At the same time three fresh rifle division raised in the Central Asia region came into battle as well. These were 238th, 312th and 316th. So the statement that Moscow was saved by asian units is as much valid as the statement that it was siberian's achievement. I think it woulld be correct to say that the forces defending the approaches to Moscow were rather a mixture of the units that survived in the first phase of "Typhoon", recently raised tank brigades and AT artillery troops, training units and several fresh divisions that STAVKA could assemble from other fronts.

Also several divisions from Transbaikalian and Far Eastern Front arrived later they came into battle only in November when the most dangerous time was over. I think that by that time the germans had lost all the real prospects for seizing Moscow and the question was only whether Red Army would be in more or less favourable position for counteroffensive. Of course this statement doesn't deny the great merits of the siberian troops. Undoubtly they were of great help in the Moscow defence.

P.S. Unfortunetly in my previous post I forgot to mention two siberian units that participated in the defence of Moscow. These are 5th Guard rd (former 107th rd) that was at the front when the battle began and 415th rd that was transfered from the Far East in November."

So to conclude, as I see it, it would be better to have the siberians implemented in the regular russian MMP:s then have them arrive in 3-4 strong units.

[Guest Mike]

There's more to it than just unit numbers tho - the arrival of fresh troops was very demoralising to the germans when combined with the onset of Winter.

As it stands at the moment it is probably far to easy for the germans in Russia, so hte Siberians are both reinforcements and game balance.

[jon_j_rambo]

How about a script of you getting a job? In all seriousness, I agree with Kuni's findings.

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by Stalin's Organist:

There's more to it than just unit numbers tho - the arrival of fresh troops was very demoralising to the germans when combined with the onset of Winter.

As it stands at the moment it is probably far to easy for the germans in Russia, so hte Siberians are both reinforcements and game balance.

Yeah well the problem is that the russian counter push in Moscow was to a majority the result of produced reserve formations not as I have shown siberian units. Thus it becomes a matter of buildning units for the russian player to have ready for autumn-winter. With a MMP-sum script it would be possible to simulate off map production and smaller troop-units(eg divisions) arriving at the front.

[Kuniworth]

I mean at first I thought the russians did actually transfer the 1st, 2nd, 15th and 25th armies from the Far East but they did'nt. They kept the army structures there and just kept on shipping divisions.

[Guest Mike]

Yeah I know what you mean - but the game dosen't allow for reserves such as the Soviets tended to keep.

[R.J.]

Originally posted by Kuniworth:

So to conclude, as I see it, it would be better to have the siberians implemented in the regular russian MMP:s then have them arrive in 3-4 strong units.

Or maybe have them arrive one unit at a time on set dates regardless of what the Germans are doing. As it is, attacking Moscow is a bit of a drag, knowing that when you get too close you're going to get walloped. This would give some incentive to blitz your little heart out.

[Bill101]

I see the point of this, but the Siberian transfer always has an effect on the Axis player's morale, an effect that wouldn't exist if it was just factored into Russian MPPs.

Let's keep the transfer in because it's a boost to Soviet and a blow to Axis morale. Just as it was in real life, even if the reality of the transfer was slightly different.

[Blashy]

What was a blow to German morale was them being outproduced so heavily and all those Russian troops arriving.

This is easily fixed with MPPs.

You scratch the Siberian transfer altogether and simply raise Oil well value from 3 to 4.

This actually fixes two issues, USA's production and Russian production which was MUCH higher than what we see in the game.

Oil wells make 40mpps instead of 30. That's 60 total extra mpps for USA and USSR when at 100%. Germany gets an extra 10 from Romania.

[Curry]

Blashy,

I think that is a good idea. With one small side effect I would give the Russians just one unit to show up, to help defend moscow. Like a corps. Just for the moral effect and to help defend moscow. But your suggestion is well taken in my small view.

[Blashy]

Ah but you do not need to do this as the extra mpps gives the Russians enough to have a significant force arrive by the time the Germans are close to Moscow, basically it does what occured historically.

By then the Axis player is aware that Russian production is in high gear, probably outproducing the Axis and the jib is up (so to speak), soon it will be time to prepare for a defense of the German homeland.

I know as I've tested this in my mod and it works out superbly.

[Retributar]

Im more familiar with Stalingrad than with Moscow, but in both case's the Russian's massed troop's over time to be used for Defense, then used for offense.

So if this is true, then im for trying to replicate those situation's. Blashy indicate's that by raising the Oil well value, that that should do it. Im of another opinion in that, what that will do is just increase the Russian/Soviet MPP's throughout the game for them instead of simulating these massive force concentration's which historically occured, and resulted in effecting an offensive impetus steam-roller effect to the Soviet's.

As i said, im a little gray in this area, so i may be incorrect somewhat, but i think that there is a good chance that i am not wrong.

[Blashy]

Eh, increasing the MPP simualtes exactly what you are saying. I've tested it. It gives the Russians the ability to have a very good force by the time Summer of 42 comes around and then it also simulates them severly outproducing Germany.

It also fixes USA in their production.

[Bromley]

What incentive is there to push for Moscow vs. Stalingrad/Caucasuses in that scenario?

Perhaps some diplomatic scripts for the fall of Moscow?

[Blashy]

Moscow is worth double the MPPs of Stalingrad AND as long as Moscow is up, the Axis risks a massing of troops.

[SittingDuck]

Blashy, are you going to redo your scenario? for v1.03? I saw it in CCMods but haven't d/l it yet.

[Guest Mike]

Bumparoo...Kuni - do you have references for the quotes above that you started this with?

Thanks

[pzgndr]

As it stands at the moment it is probably far to easy for the germans in Russia, so the Siberians are both reinforcements and game balance.

This is the proper way to consider the Siberians. Whether they show up as whole units (corps, armies) or not is irrelevant. The historical reality was that USSR did release reserves over time and they helped Moscow survive a critical period.

In game terms, how do you make these "free" troops available? You use the unit event. We're already dealing with abstractions in the game. So you inject new units to simulate the arrival of fresh troops that the player does not have to pay for.

If we could have event scripts for one-time MPP increases, then maybe that would better simulate the reserves as free reinforcements. Another resource event like Urals Industry would not be a one-time increase and would not inject enough MPPs into the game fast enough at the critical period. So, free units work well for reinforcements and game balance.

[SeaMonkey]

The Siberian mechanism does work well, ala Bill.

Then again, it is ahistorical.

This is a "what if" game and I believe the player is suppose to occupy the supreme position.

Blashy's scenario is good, yet because the map and environment doesn't include a viable WW2 Asian condition, this part is subject to scripts and abstraction.

Personally, I would prefer a more historically accurate chain of events. The same amount of forces over a greater period of time depending on the USA activation.

I believe it was Japan's DoW in the Pacific that allowed the Red Army's introduction of the masses of troops we saw for the 42 winter offensive as well as the ramping of the military industrial might.

In conclusion, perhaps a little of both, MPP ramp and reinforcement schedule dependant upon USA entry and German position triggers.

[Blashy]

USA's massive convoy to Russia is what helped them turn things around. It gave Russia supplies to train and arm troops. What I simply did in my scenario was give USA the ability to make its "historical" mpps thus giving the ability for huge convoys to USSR.

There was less than 50k total troops on the Russia-Japan border, in SC2 terms that is a STR 5 corps with Zhukov as well.

The problem with my scenario is an exploit, all the Axis player has to do is take out Archangel port and those tons of USA mpps are gone while in reality most of the convoys where coming via Iran/Black Sea ports. Then again it forces the Allies player to concentrate forces in Leningrad-Moscow area which we do not see allot in the default setup, even though it was a critical area for the Allies. And it can be defended with AFs and AA (AA guns as well in WaW).

[Timskorn]

There may be a better way to simulate it, but right now in game terms it seems fine. I think with the WaW expansion we'll see less ability to instantly transport these troops anywhere on the map...and possibly give incentive to the Axis player to disrupt rail lines to the areas they wouldn't want to see the Siberians Op-move to.

This is just another case of history vs. gameplay. I like that SC2 fines a good balance between the two. If a strict interpretation is can be both fun and balanced, great, but that can't always be the case in a game.

[arado234]

Blashy when you bump up allied mpps did you find the game almost unwinable for germany.(like it really was).

[Blashy]

Yes I do change my victory conditions for the Axis.

End game is August 31st 1945.

Major Axis Victory: Germany has 4 central cities and Rome is still alive.

Minor Axis Victory: Germany has 4 central cities.

Siberian transfer is: 1 HQ, 1 corps, 1 artillery STR 1, Fighter STR 1 and 1 Tank STR 1. Which was about what was transfered from Siberia.

At maximum USA makes 1000 mpps, compared to what Germany makes in SC2 at the historical peak of production (1944) it comes out OK since US GDP was 3 times bigger than Germany.

[Guest Mike]

Ummm..Blashy - there may not have been many troops at hte Japanese border - which is of course only the border with what we now call Korea.

But htere were upwards of 60 divisions in the Far East and Trans-Baikal fronts in the middle of 1941 AFAIK and that's an awful lot more than 50k troops in "Siberia" in total.

20 divisions were transfered to the Moscow area - some came from Ural and Central Asia as well as "Siberia, but I think you're giving out the wrong signals as to how many troops there were "out that way".

Anyway - there's a bit of a debate about Siberians on the Matrix boards about just how many Siberians therewere, and when they arrived at Moscow, so I'm interested in references.

[n0kn0k]

I've got a documentary here from some american ministry or something.

I have to double check it, but I believe it was around 30 divisions.