Unit puchase bug.. more or less serious

[Hyazinth von Strachwitz]

Yesterday I noticed a major bug... I need to say I use the german version, but I can imagine that this also works in the normal english version.

The following occured:

- I started a game as Axis on maxed out settings

- Axis starts with 128MPP

- I went to the unit purchase screen

- I clicked on "armies"

- I chose a name and changed it

- I bought that army although the price was higher than 128 (I did this by mistake; basically I wanted to leave the screen)

- My MPP account was negative

I repeated steps 3 to 6 like 15 times... my MPP account was around -2000MPP.

I restarted my PC and tried it again... and it worked everytime... strange.

[ July 17, 2006, 12:45 AM: Message edited by: Hyazinth von Strachwitz ]

[Kuniworth]

Yep just tried it. You are right. Damn, this must be fixed IMEDIATELY.

[Liam]

Ought oh, I'm going to build about 50 armor for Rambo in our game

[Hyazinth von Strachwitz]

Funny.... I just realized the Z-Plan....

[hellraiser]

this is so gay ... bye bye fair mp games

[Blashy]

ouch!

Well both sides can do it, lol!

[Terif]

And another thing for the next patch...

Fortunately if someone uses it and therefore has a negative mpp saldo, then he can´t operate or reinforce units any more - so there is a chance to detect it...

But a report like in SC 1 would come in handy here - when you can see the enemy mpps and how much units he has, then it is pretty easy to know if he had e.g. some "additonal" ressources .

[Hyazinth von Strachwitz]

I seriously doubt that any serious player will use that... does it make fun then? And basically you don`t win much.... you have the units from the beginning on, but (as Terif said) you give up other stuff...

[Blashy]

I don't want to see how many MPPs the enemy has or how many units. That takes away some of the strategy.

That information gave away too much in SC.

[Terif]

To see how much mpps and units the enemy had in SC 1 was part of the strategy and improved possibilities and the strategic aspect of the game a lot in my opinion since it was possible to plan ahead. In SC 2 there are a bit too many luck factors and gambling involved for my taste - but that´s a different discussion .

Concerning the topic here, its anti-cheating function was also a big plus of the SC 1 report. Since now in SC 2 without knowing anything about the enemy, there is no possibility any more to check if he gave himselve some "advantages" or not. In SC1 it was possible to more or less easily check this - which gave a much better feeling than it is now in SC 2 .

[Kuniworth]

There sure are piling up tons of stuff for the 1.03 patch...

[Blashy]

I can't agree with that Terif.

IN WW2 you did not know exactly how many troops the other side had or how much money was coming in.

If we did know, it takes away ALOT of tactical moves. In Russia especially, you don't know if you move forward if you'll face 3-4 tanks.

If it was like SC1, you would know exactly how many tanks the Russians had and that helps out way too much. This goes both ways.

It also makes Long Range air very important and a tactical weapon (indirectly).

SC2 is still very technical IMO, you have a few luck factors that the default campaign has, but IMO I've resolved those in my mod and they are no longer gamebreakers, even if you get lucky, the chances are MUCH less, making the game more historical. You should try it.

[Terif]

Yep, we disagree

My opinion:

In WW 2 this may be right, but SC 2 is a game and no historical simulation.

My point of view is from game balance and how to create a better strategical game - for me SC 2 is a strategy game (at least SC 1 was..) and not a historical simulation, so historical accuracy is not my main concern.

Although even historically I would say both sides had certainly more informations about the enemy troops and ressources than in SC 2 now - don´t forget this is on a corps/army size level and intelligence was not non existant in WW2.

In SC 1 you didn´t know how much tanks the enemy had - only how much land units, without any closer specifications. So despite beeing essential for the game, this intelligence information is even not really unhistorical.

Personally I prefer to have some informations at hand to base strategic decisions on them instead of acting blindly how it is now and just hoping for to be lucky and to have produced the right things when you finally encounter the enemy after the around 2 years without any informations.

Unfortunately at the moment without report information combined with production delay, there is no real strategy involved - at least it is not possible to react strategically to enemy decissions. How it is now, SC 2 for me is a lot closer to a tactical game than a strategy game.

In SC 1 you were able to choose different paths and had to react to the enemy and what he did. In SC 2 you just play more or less blindly without much informations about the other side. Remembers me a lot to the old "paper, stone, scissor" game...after around 2 years there will then be 1-2 decissive battles and until then you didn´t know if you produced the right things and only your tactical decissions in the frontline battle then make the difference.

However, SC 2 certainly still needs some patches - not only for the technical/bug problems. The thing I really don´t like at the moment in SC 2 is that defence is pretty much impossible (attack values much too high, too many attacks possible with move-attack feature + tiles and readiness reductions by surrendered nations + airstrikes). As just shown in my game with Jollyguy, not even Maginot has a chance to hold against even some weak corps with not much tech and you can march through without too many problems...

In version 1.02 it is only necessary to simply storm forward and crush every resistance or be finally crushed yourself by a counterattack in one decissive battle. Has unfortunately not much to do with strategy - but I hope this changes in the future with some patches.

[jon_j_rambo]

I've got to agree with Yodl. SC-2 is a blind crapshoot at times. By the way, since when do Euros do "Rock, Paper, Scissors"?

Ground attacks are oh so powerful, it's a joke. I'm having fun with SC-2, but it just doesn't have the addiction factor of SC-1. SC-1 had a great French Campaign, whereas SC-2 French Campaign is a laugher.

[Blashy]

Well I for one want SC2 to have as much historical accuracy as possible with the tools in hand. I don't see the point of calling a game a WW2 game if you're not striving for that.

That is why my mod has A LOT more historical accuracy and actual game balance.

I will agree with you that total land troops info would be a good idea, I was thinking you wanted actual unit numbers.

As for your last paragraph, I'll say again Terif, try my mod, you'll appreciate the changes I'm sure of it. Its not because it was not made by Hubert that it can not be a huge improvement .

JJvR, the French campaign is IMHO much more historical in SC2 than SC1, in SC1 you could PILE on troops which was ridiculous. The French had crap logistics and never could have mounted a good defense. You could always try the bring the UK troops with HQ in it, with my mod that is more of a possibility since UK starts with an HQ.

[SeaMonkey]

This is a perfect parameter for a lead in Intelligent tech to reveal.

You have a higher level of intel, you see those that have a lesser level, MPPs and unit configurations as in SC.

Its simple, its somewhat realistic, and it will catalize an additional dilution of MPPs which leads to more diverse strategies.

[Hyazinth von Strachwitz]

@ Seamonkey: agreed... good idea. The amount of information you will get should also be dependent to the relative levels of both sides (I think this is what you want to say with "lead in Intel Tech", right?), i.e. if Germany has Level 4 and the UK have Level 1, Germany should get some rough info about total MPPs a turn or recently deployed units.

[jon_j_rambo]

Where's Hombre Plin for the MMP cheat? This ain't Diablo!

[hellraiser]

Agree with the ground attacks being too powerful stuff. Just up the defence as well when you get IW tech upgrades.

Another problem I have is how the experience factor works. I would like to see more use of the xp in this game. IRL, you cannot even compare an experienced fighting force, comprised of veterans, with a new force, recruits, etc even at the same lvl of equipment. Higher XP could mean less morale drop from air attacks for example (veterans know to use the terrain to take cover as opposed to green troops). Every player should strive to get and preserve experienced troops - remember what meant the veteran LSSAH, Das Reich, Totenkopf, US vet airborne divisions, 8th british army, etc in terms of increased enemy casualties but lower own casualties as well as increased effectiveness in pursuing their tasks. It is clear for me that XP can be made more important in SC2.

Another thing - I'm not that comfortable with how the game treats the tank concept. Ok, we all want Tigers, Panthers, IS2 and stuff but OTOH I would like to see their performances drop the higher the tech is, in some specific terrain conditions. For example stuffing a heavy tank unit in a city sucks *ss...or forcing the to fight in forests, marshes, even mountains - you just deny one of their main attribute - mobility. The tank is the king of the open field full stop. The higher the tank tech, the more devastating the effect BUT in places where the tanks can properly be deployed.

If you want to mod the morale drop from direct hits - the tank is one of the answers: every ww2 veteran can confirm that being attacked by a full tank division is a bloody nightmare.

Ref France campaign - no , i don't want a tougher french campaign. What SC1 had for this was purely gamey moves: cheesy landings, London AA bug, carriers raping everything using chatham port , fleet disbanding for buying hq or tank.

In SC2, you can inflict some losses to the axis, or even a lot depending on the axis players' skill, but you cannot hold Paris indefinitely. It works ok for me as I don't want 30 minutes french games.

Ref intelligence about opposing forces' numbers, mpps, etc. To me, it bears no strategical importance really as even in ww2, the intel reports were always contradicting each other, you couldn't actually base your strategy solely on intel reports. If germans knew that russia had deployed XXXXXX tanks, do you think they would have built more, to face the reported threat? No, everyone always built as much as they could, anyway. You can build a balanced army, an armour oriented force, a swarm of infantry units - your choice, the enemy has his choices as well. Someone WILL win, and that's the one that properly built his army and acted with skill, given the circumstances. Not always you take decisions based on your enemy decisions. Sometimes you gotta figure it out for yourself. Here I could live with a more detailed report but with a certain error margin, and nothing more.

[ July 18, 2006, 04:06 AM: Message edited by: hellraiser ]

[Iron Ranger]

"ground attacks being too powerful stuff"

Air Fleets are too powerfull... now ground attacks are too powerfull... and BBs shelling shore units are too powerfull... but not on transports I guess.

Bla... wtf everything is too powerfull? Or is each person's style of play. Also due to weather ect... luck is a huge factor here vs SC1. Is that the 'problem'?

[Scook]

Wow, never thought the ground attacks too powerful. Air too powerful? Maybe a little. BBs shelling the shore? Haven't found that to last too long, as the BB takes hits. It would cost more to repair the ship than how many MPP the other side loses. MAybe it is playstyle, maybe luck, but I would think a player should try to keep supply, weather, etc. in mind and minimize luck.

[TommyT]

Just some info on this bug.

After read about this bug I wanted to try it out and produced all units in the force pool for both the Germans and the Italians in turn 1 of Fall Weiss.

So I started turn 2 with about -15k & -5k for respectively Germany and Italy. But then I could "max" reinforce a german corps to strength -11k and the italian sub to -4k.

After I ended turn 2 the MPP balance of Germany & Italy was back in the positive!

Offcourse the rather low strengt unit were quickly destroyed

[Hyazinth von Strachwitz]

Hubert will be happy to hear that... good observation.

[n0kn0k]

For example stuffing a heavy tank unit in a city sucks *ss...or forcing the to fight in forests, marshes, even mountains - you just deny one of their main attribute - mobility.

This comes back partly i believe in the higher tank defence values for those kind of places. On the other hand, that's only half the solution.