I am dispointed with the game!

[Stragic Command]

The AI is very weak, even weaker than the AI in strategic command 2! Strategic command one had a pretty good AI but this AI is so weak when I give it =2 eperience bonus and give it 99999 resource it still lose!

The Axis AI does a great job initiatlly attacking USSR but as soon as the Axis AI runs out of steam in the offensive it crumbles, first mistake the AI makes is not using its massive resource, second is not knowing how to reatreat when confronted with superior forces and thirdly not building enough corps!

Please fix the Axis AI so that when it runs out of steam in the attack against russia it will immediately shift gear from attack to defence! I don't want a walk over AI around 1942 because by that time I already stop the AI's attacks and since the AI refuses to do a good job defending from that point on the death toll is so unreal and the game becomes completely boring!

[Moon]

AI script improvements and additions are one of the main aspects of the 1.01 patch which Hubert is finishing right now. We expect to have it out early next week.

Martin

[hellraiser]

@Tragic -> so basically you're dissapointed by the AI not the game as a whole, right? Your momma gotta be proud of 'building' such a smart kid as you are - 'I , robot'

Don't worry , the BF gang's gonna serve you a nice, beefed up, AI on the rocks soon

Why don't you try some human opponents for a change? Try to explore the rest of the SC2 aspects before stating 'i am dissapointed with the GAME'.

I agree with you, the AI is a bit retarded, but you should channel your hatred towards the AI and only the AI, the rest of the game is nice

[markpoll]

I have to agree with you about the AI.

I consider myself an average player, but on the average difficulty setting, the longest its taken me to defeat Germany in 3 games as allies is Mid 43. The quickest was October, 42.

The main reason for this I think is that the AI is over optimistic putting units into gaps and having a shot at high value units and is so a sucker for traps (eg a HQ just back from a gap with strong counter attack forces nearby), letting you cut off and destroy its most valuable units. In my last game, Germany lost 2 armour and 2 infantry this way IN FRANCE, France did not fall until late 41 and Russia was in Berlin in Oct 42.

It's as bad as Axis. I've defeated the entire US and UK navies with 3 subs (admittedly making fequent trips to port for repairs)and have never seen an allied amphibious operation.

I'm glad to hear that this is being dealt with in a patch, because this would have no replay value for me as is.

[Blashy]

Basically the game shipped with the mechanics functional KNOWING the AI was a work in progress.

We barely had time to touch it before it shipped.

Don't be scared thinking Hubert is some bad programmer, he's a one man army if you ask me.

At least people can have some good human vs. human matches and not have to wait more because the AI is not complete.

I hope I'm not overstepping my bounds here, I simply want to reassure you all that you have a great game in hand with fantastic game mechanics, the AI will improve as well as the overall product. Anyone who's purchased SC can attest to this.

[guinty1]

Originally posted by Blashy:

Basically the game shipped with the mechanics functional KNOWING the AI was a work in progress.

We barely had time to touch it before it shipped.

Don't be scared thinking Hubert is some bad programmer, he's a one man army if you ask me.

At least people can have some good human vs. human matches and not have to wait more because the AI is not complete.

I hope I'm not overstepping my bounds here, I simply want to reassure you all that you have a great game in hand with fantastic game mechanics, the AI will improve as well as the overall product. Anyone who's purchased SC can attest to this.

If what you say is true then the game should never have been released.An unfinished game does not warrant a retail price.I have been fairly happy with the game so far ,only as a pvp one tho,a lot of people dont/cant play pvp so its unfair to them.

[mustang96]

Yo stop the whining,you can script the game to make it harder! It will also be improved with the patch coming!

Mustang

[markpoll]

It's not whining to expect a robust single player game as released.

That said, I don't expect a functional game to held back while MP players could be enjoying it, especially when it was adequate (just) for single player as released and is being fairly promptly addressed by patch. I do expect to be able to say what I think could be improved without being called a whiner.

More constructively, there are a number of things I really like about the game, particularly the convoy and diplomacy systems and increased (over SC1) scope for Med operations, so I really hope there's a challenging SP game to be had.

[Moon]

guinty1, SC2 was released with a working AI (well, except for one bug), and with the deliberate design decision to open AI for scripting to users AND improve upon it as time goes by. It was clear early on that with the unlimited possibilities that SC2 offers vs SC1 due to the addition of a lot of new game elements, it will be impossible to release an AI out of the box which would stand even the slightest chance against human players. Let's not have any illusions, a "robust AI" would have required many many months of coding and testing for a game like this, and you all know it.

It's no accident therefore, but part of the design, that we have released the game as is. The open design effectively enables the AI to learn and adjust to various player strategies via scripts and improve as times go by, to actually stay on a level with experienced players out there.

Martin

[Desert Dave]

It's no accident therefore, but part of the design, that we have released the game as is. The open design effectively enables the AI to learn and adjust to various player strategies via scripts and improve as times go by...

Good that you should mention this, Moon, since more than one member had wondered quite ALOUD:

_________________________________________

"How could those *%#$@ Beta Testers have missed such an OBVIOUS thing, how TERRIBLE they all are!

You should have got PREMIUM players (... like ME, naturally!) to test this!"

_______________________________________

And, ahem, there was NO explanation forthcoming, such as yours just above, to say otherwise... until now.

Blashy was actually pointing out the obvious... and NOW we are ALL on the same page, eh? :cool:

[Hugh Hefner]

I for one don't think the AI any worse than most other war/strategy games these days, and I look forward to it "learning" over the coming months as the scripts get tweaked.

I've been playing with the difficulty turned all the way up, and it's providing a decent enough challlenge at this stage (considering my skill level, anyway).

Love the game. Hubert is the Man. Just starting to look for PBEM games now.

[hellraiser]

DD, it is not a wrong thing to use the so called 'premium' players to beta test - they are not 'premium' for no reason. IMHO, it is a very good thing to use the community's best brains instead of just taking notes from them about what's wrong after the game gets shipped.

It is my opinion and that's all, no offence to anyone here.

I am very confident that SC2 will be a game we'll play for as long as SC1 or even more once the things get patched and balanced as I strongly consider the game has a huge potential. The other thing that always has made me appreciate Hubert and the guys of BF is that they really care for the community and listen to what the community has to say - this is 'rara avis' , if I may say so. Keeping close contacts with the community is a very lucrative 'dualism' - a lot of feedback and possibly interesting ideeas passed to BF, a lot of help to the community from the BF. Win-win, right?

[hellraiser]

@ the guys constantly biotching about the AI

1. Guys, countless threads have been opened about the AI being weak. Hubert and the guys running the show here have replied in each and every of those threads, assuring you that AI will get beefed up, made more challenging, etc - this show support and you have to respect that - they haven't 'stolen' your money and ran away!

2. No matter how much tweaking and patching Hubert will do to the AI, you will still beat the living **** out of it once you get used to its 'limited' thinking, routines, etc. There is no way yet for someone to code a truly badass-human emulating AI. Had Hubert been able to code such beast we would have called him GOD and attend to the 'Hubertic Church', right?

You can improve and improve and improve but never reach this marvelous stage where the human mind is. At least not now.

My advice is to check for threads containing the a/m AI issues and post there accordigly.

You'll get the patch and shortly after (several days, weeks) you'll be saying ' oh, yeah, it solved this and that but I just discovered i don't know what badass strategy that AI can't handle!!! OMFG, t3h AI suxxorz, shouldn't have ever bought this game, waste of time, etc ' - something in this line. With every patch this will happen again and again simply because you AI whiners and biotches are SMARTER than the AI - live with that!

[ May 17, 2006, 06:08 AM: Message edited by: hellraiser ]

[Desert Dave]

DD, it is not a wrong thing to use the so called 'premium' players to beta test - they are not 'premium' for no reason.

Thing is, how do we KNOW who those are?

From a VERY tiny group that plays competitively, MERELY?

Or, might there be... quiet, experienced and competent players that you don't even know about since they prefer,

Like the fence-fixing and windmill-blade-adjusting Cowboy, not bragging all over the place about it... yep, just doing the job, doing the ordinary thing, as is required.

It USED TO BE a more common trait among Americans.

Notso, nowadays.

Information Age, and every body just aching for their 15 minutes of FAME, has caused there to exist... fewer Cowboys, and many more itchy-fingered "city slickers."

if I may say so. Keeping close contacts with the community is a very lucrative 'dualism' - a lot of feedback and possibly interesting ideeas passed to BF, a lot of help to the community from the BF. Win-win, right?

Couldn't agree more, and have said so on more than one occasion. :cool:

You KNOW what's what in this ol' commercial world - is careening 'round the bend like a runaway train, HR, as do I, having helped run a successful "small business" for over a decade.

[Yogi]

Originally posted by hellraiser:

@ the guys constantly biotching about the AI

It's a great game that should and will be better.

But it is as fair to gripe about the AI as it is to gripe about all the other things I have seen attacked in the forums. If AI isn't important to you, great, but don't condemn people who do find it important. To many players, solitare is the main use of all computer games. Perhaps they don't have and/or want to take the time for much head to head play. Perhaps they just enjoy playing at the times and speed that fits into their own schedule. Perhaps they just enjoy the experimenting that is easy without a live opponent.

Further, no one (at least very few) expects the AI to be as good as a human. We do expect it to do a resaonably competent job of attack and defense. We naturally expect and want to beat it.

This AI like many others was very poorly done. I've come to expect that. I am pleased that it has been acknowledged that it is poor and that they are working on it. I look forward to the patches.

One more thought, a game company that puts a great deal of time and thought into AI, will probably find that they will attract a loyal base of customers from a group that is use to being ignored.

[ May 17, 2006, 06:47 AM: Message edited by: Yogi ]

[hellraiser]

Yogi no one is underestimating the human vs AI part of the game. I was just pointing out that there is no need to open 1000 threads about it - constant posting will bump the threads anyway so things won't go unnoticed. The other part of my post was about the quality of the AI with each improvement/patch - 'decent' job at attacking/defending is perceived differently by various players, I think you agree with that - will ever be a consensus on these boards that 'yes, now the AI does a good job' ? Probably not - I think you catch my drift

[hellraiser]

"Thing is, how do we KNOW who those are?

From a VERY tiny group that plays competitively, MERELY?

Or, might there be... quiet, experienced and competent players that you don't even know about since they prefer..."

Dave, that tiny group at least you have some info on it About those 'silent superplayers' - it is more than possbile for them to exist but if you don't know about them, they actually don't exist for this what we're talking about, right?

I can understand your rather defensive position regarding the beta testing team. I don't have to agree with it, though We have different opinions that means we have something to talk about, right? I tend to see the glass 1/2 filled

[Sombra]

Originally posted by Desert Dave:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />DD, it is not a wrong thing to use the so called 'premium' players to beta test - they are not 'premium' for no reason.

Thing is, how do we KNOW who those are?

From a VERY tiny group that plays competitively, MERELY?

</font>

[hellraiser]

@ Yogi and DD -> while a solid AI will earn a good fan base, that's guaranteed, you cannot overlook the importance of some board's veterans - think of those many guys Yoda, DH, Sombra have trained up in the BuntaLiga - those players have become really good, I can guarantee that - me and Rambo got even beaten there and a lot of others pose real problems when played against. Those trainees get better and better,grow up and will train others ... the stuff tends to repeat even for some time after the game hype has worn off.

[Timskorn]

There's also 2 kinds of AI's that will be available over time. For most players they want a 1939 campaign that plays out very close to history (Ie, they want to see D-Day in July 1944, Operation Torch, Axis invasion of Denmark, etc) and an AI that gives them a difficult challenge.

The other type of AI will be entirely based around competitive gaming. Historic events won't be as important as the AI doing things in a way to efficiently beat you. This'll be for those who don't play MP but don't mind an ahistorical game if it means the AI might completely thrash them in a way they didn't expect.

From the sound of it HC is fixing some non-script stuff that'll make the current AI much more competent. Just the simple fix of having the AI properly upgrade their units, or buy units upgraded, can have a huge effect on difficulty level.

[jon_j_rambo]

Yes, the PanzerLiga has grown into quite a family of competitive players. PL is also going to have their first ever public meeting, unreal!

Back to the game:

1) Never cared about the A.I. Don't even want Hubert wasting his time fixing it. If he needs too, that's his business, but don't do it for me.

2) I love the timer option. Therefore, I'm backing Hubert all the way. Bottom line, I like the game, just don't have alot of time in the summer to play. Games are meant for winter.

3) The testing needed Legends of the game, it's that simple. I told you to offer Yodl a free trip to Canada for testing purposes.

4) Nothing against Blashy & others, you did your best. But good intentions don't mean good results. There are many types of testing, but strategy belongs in the hands of Icons.

5) It's early, allow HC to makes some changes. It took SC1 a few patches to get going.

"Call the Man" --- Andy Griffith to Aunt Bee when the 'fridge broke.

[Desert Dave]

3) The testing needed Legends of the game, it's that simple. I told you to offer Yodl a free trip to Canada for testing purposes.

4) Nothing against Blashy & others, you did your best. But good intentions don't mean good results. There are many types of testing, but strategy belongs in the hands of Icons.

You've been shouting this for some time now.

How about giving it a rest.

In Potter's Field, where it belongs.

I have aleady STATED,

On MORE than one occasion,

That 100's of excellent players (... MOST, we don't know about since they never talk much, like 'em Cowboys and Knights of Olde)

Are absolutely REQUIRED in order to find ALL

The various "niggling bugs" and

Those IMMENSE numbers of possible

Stratagems, gamey or otherwise,

Finely realized. :cool:

Ain't that enough?

Or, need we continue to debase the efforts

[..."good intentions don't mean good results"]

Of those who have spent, in 2 cases

Anyway, two YEARS trying

To help Hubert - the LONE Coder,

Get the game out - RIGHT NOW!

As it was wished for.

And so, it's here.

Let the most X-cellent Players

**(... and yes HR, I agree that

these DO exist, and I doubt that I personally could climb the ladder all that far, though,

who knows? Unless you would try, eh? Perhaps, one fine Robin-warbling day, I so do. )

Continue to test the hell out of it,

It's what is... REQUIRED.

Everything... Jake?

[ May 17, 2006, 09:35 AM: Message edited by: Desert Dave ]

[Tagwyn]

Yogi is exactly correct. The only game I have enjoyed playing on internet is CM!! Rambler is a goofy, self-centered dork. Thanks for the upgraded AI. Tag

[TaoJah]

Originally posted by Blashy:

Basically the game shipped with the mechanics functional KNOWING the AI was a work in progress.

IMHO it is a BIG BIG BIG mistake to ship half-finished games.

Counting on patches to improve it, just isn't good business practice : ALOT of players don't patch their games, so guess who won't be buying any futher products here ?

I said it before and I'll say it again : someone should count the number of games sold and then the number of patches and do the math of how many players are stuck with this AI...

Next time, they'll give it another month or two before releasing it.

For someone that plays against the AI, the only fun thing to do is to try to beat your own Major Victory date, that's all there is to do.

[Timskorn]

Wasting his time fixing it? If there was no singleplayer there wouldn't even be an SC2. I know I wouldn't have bothered to buy it. Embrace the AI JJR, it funds your existence here.