Rockets

[SeaMonkey]

Good one KG, I'm for SA/TA at 1 and strike range two for our new artillery unit.

It will open up a whole new dimension in SC2.

A counter for upgraded HT and IW units. Might even add to the defensive characteristics, since the only defense in SC2 is offense.

[Cary]

One tile is 100km square, no artillery ever fired that long in WW2.

But if you're going to be real about the 100x100km square, you've got to allow stacking.

A certain suspension of disbelief is required to accept that the Germans had lines of troops 300 km deep waiting for Fall Gelb. Given that, why quibble about "rockets."

[SeaMonkey]

Thank you Cary, a viable observation. And that is just my point, because you are not allowed to stack you must make some conceptual alterations with unit dispositions.

Is it so hard to imagine?

[SeaMonkey]

You guys ever play GGWaW? Well it is this scale, bigger, and there are artillery units.

You know them damn artillery units are deadly to, just like IRL, but they have a weakness. Know what it is?

Attack from the air. Imagine we had an SC2 artillery unit. Do you think it would get much attention from AFs.

You better damn sure bet your last dollar they will. Those AFs will prioritize those units and you won't be complaining so much about them damaging your frontline units, will you?

You might even invest a lot of MPPs to get your artillery range higher than your opponents....so you can what????....counter-battery...maybe??

Does this all sound like something that would happen in warfare....for real??

Ask yourselves....are we creating a another dimension of gameplay for SC2 strategies and tactics? Is it in keeping with real life scenarios?

Then what in the hell is the problem here?

Scale?? That is a hopeless argument. Scale?? is going to stand in the way of gameplay?

Is this a game? What is important about a game?

Gameplay???.....maybe, or is it scale?

[ChrisND]

Should be an easy mod for someone to insert arty bitmaps instead of rockets, and reduce the cost.

[Timskorn]

Don't even really need the bitmaps just yet. Just rename them and add an artillery sound for now. All the combat data can be changed in a matter of seconds.

Hell, for testing purposes you don't need anything, just change the costs and combat values and play a game like that. See how it turns out. Would be interesting to see how it changes combat.

At the very least it opens up a previously un-used unit and research arm. The more possibilities = more strategy = funner game in my opinion.

[ChrisND]

I am going to give it a whirl this weekend and see how it works out.

[Sombra]

Originally posted by Timskorn:

Don't even really need the bitmaps just yet. Just rename them and add an artillery sound for now. All the combat data can be changed in a matter of seconds.

Hell, for testing purposes you don't need anything, just change the costs and combat values and play a game like that. See how it turns out. Would be interesting to see how it changes combat.

At the very least it opens up a previously un-used unit and research arm. The more possibilities = more strategy = funner game in my opinion.

Everything to see at least sometimes rockets used is good. Even if you change it to artillery and apply the same rules as in Panzergeneral with supportuive fire etc.

[Alex Koponen]

The Germans did have a V3 under construction to bomb London with. Effectively a very large fixed artillery piece it would have had a range of 150 miles. See the bottom of http://www.nat-military-museum.lu/pageshtml/museumspecial.html

or http://alanburnham.blogspot.com/

"1944, and Germany is preparing to launch a series of Vergeltungswaffen (retaliation weapons) against England. The V1 is the world's first cruise missile, the V2 is the world's first long range rocket, and the V3's are a battery of super guns being built under concrete domes at Mimoyecques in France. The V3's have the angled additional propellent chambers first thought of in 1929 . The super gun batteries are designed to rain down 600 tonnes of explosive every day on London, 165 kilometres away. It didn't happen though. The Germans had a lot of problems designing shells which would stay stable at a speed of one and a half kilometres per second and by the time the design was sorted out RAF bunker buster bombs had penetrated the protective domes and turned the V3's into scrap metal."

Basically with sufficient resources devoted to "Rocketry" you get some form of long range explosives delivery system. The precise design of the weapon isn't important to the game of SC2.

- Alex

[SeaMonkey]

Ok guys, finally we're getting some intelligent people on board. But we have a small problem with an accurate presentation of the artillery unit and that is in the naval aspect.

Not a unit breaker, but it would be a bit unrealistic for artilley units to damage naval vessels that were offshore. In other words, artillery units should only be able to strike sea tiles that are adjacent to land tiles.

See, now we have just broadened our gameplay again with artillery units. No longer will naval units be able to bombard your land units with impunity. I have heard the complaints about naval bombardment, but now your land based forces can return the damage.....sound realistic?

[ChrisND]

Finished pre-lim testing of rockets as arty.

Changing the localization files, adding in the arty bitmaps and sounds etc takes about 1 minute to do, so that is easy enough.

Made the lvl 0 arty to have range of 2, 1 attack vs everything, and a defense value of a corps. Set the cost to 250 and the research cost to 125.

It seemed to work fine. Units in resources, forts, etc were almost immune to low-level arty, as they should be.

Once the arty tech hits a high level, we can consider it as having reached strategic rockets, or rail guns, or what have you.

Scale wise, I have no problem with it. it represents the massing of fire support on a strategic level for operations.

I really like this idea, and you can all expect my new version of the 1939 scenario (due out in a few weeks) to be fielding arty.

[Desert Dave]

Normal Dude:

Scale wise, I have no problem with it. it represents the massing of fire support on a strategic level for operations.

Nor do I.

Like SeaMonkey,

I have favored its use for quite some time,

Why ever not?

Scale is no bother,

One can use imagination and suppose

That the Arty is in fact

Closer to the front lines,

Only,

It is "protected" by intevening troops.

(... though, IF left alone, well, there

you gotta take yer chances, which is appropriate)

I even have it in my own mod.

**However,

I would really like to see

An accomplished & artistic someone "paint"

The graduated units in this slot,

So that we might actually see

Katyusha and Neblewerfers

And equivalent types for other

Nations... at L-2 and L-3.

L-4 and L-5 should be reserved

For the V-1 and V-2 sprites

That we already have,

And,

Limited to GErmany only.

Main thing, have some FUN with the mods! :cool:

___________________________

Ammended to say,

Since ALL attack values (... and, range) start out @ ONE, and go up with each level of tech achievement

I would probably opt for something along these lines:

L-0= Heavy Artillery

L-1= MLR, or Katyushas and Nebelwerfer types

L-2= V-1

L-3= V-2

Notes:

OK, so Hvy Arty has range of 1 (... or, could start @2), and we are "imagining" that this unit is on the front lines, but not REALLY... so you give them "inherent" Security Division, therefore all defense ratings are 1.

SA starts out at 2.

All other type of ground attacks= 1.

Could add "motorization" reflecting Mobile Arty, yet, wouldn't want to add TOO MUCH, or it gets more expensive than it's value.

Initial Cost? Say... 250 MPP's.

NO L-4 or 5 for anyone.

Problem being, attack values would actually be too high for V-1's & 2's, but, given what we got to mod, trade off might yet be worth it.

O/W, just have the Artillery and MLR and forget the V-1 & 2, which would work out OK also.

[ July 01, 2006, 05:06 PM: Message edited by: Desert Dave ]

[SeaMonkey]

Men, I have to hand it off to you guys, y'all have got it.

I've performed my role, just a little push, it was apparent in SC1, that's all it would take, but you guys are more receptive, the idea is gathering moss.

Like a snowball going downhill, the momentum of artillery is undeniable.

Tell us HC, this is our new SC2 parameter. At least let us test it. :cool:

Thanks to all, but most of all to you,

Blashy, your mod got it done. SHHHH, I don't want to hear it. Don't be insulting my intelligence, you know you saw it all along.

[Cary]

For what it's worth, if we were to take the rockets seriously as they were, level 3s are V-1s, Level 4s V-2s. (any lower levels can't reach London from France).

It's worth noting that Rockets' strategic attack value does make them representative of siege artillery in the game: often it is advantageous to reduce the value of cities on the front line so that the units within can't be reinforced.

[Blashy]

My MOD did nothing but remove rockets from the game and it surely did not bring in unrealistic artillery that can fire 100s of km away.

My MOD simply makes it historical, Germany gets 3 rockets in the queue that are already L5, representing the high end rockets they had at the end of the war.

Germany can't purchase more rockets and no other country can purchase rockets and no country can invest in rocket tech.

You can test it yourselves, just make the changes in the editor. I just don't see Artillery showing up EVER on a scale that would be unrealistic.

[Scook]

In game terms, been playing with rockets for quite a while. We never think of them as strategic bombing assets to blow up cities; we always use them in a capacity as artillery vs. units. In a close game, these can make an offensive move. Strange as this sounds, the last place we use them is attacking cities, the city sucks up the bombing leaving the troops intact.

Why would you buy this over an aircraft? The biggest reason is the attacking is one way, you shoot, you gain xp, and you never take damage from attacking, unlike aircraft. With some care, you can have 4-5 bars of xp in no time, and these turn deadly in a hurry. At max range with 5 bars of xp, a tank group will take 4 damage from a 1 strength hit.

You do need some tech improvements to make it work, Level 3 rockets are optimal (4 and 5 better, of course), and level 2 motorization is really a must with these.

Now then, yes the scale is wrong to have artillery in the game. But, in game terms, this is what made America and Russia move against the Germans. Russia masses so much artillery for every offensive, and America had Corps assests that were flexible and deadly. I would think in game terms, US and USSR would have 3 artillery, and Britain 1 (they learned by 1944), and Germany would probably have 0, or 1, depending how you feel about it.

Blashy, I like what you have done with your mod. The only change which I havent looked into yet, is American firepower. You are correct in saying this scale shouldnt have artillery. The US had so much of it, the overall firepower for US units should be higher. Is it possible to raise US units inf and tank attack and defensive values by 1 each? That would show the level of suuport American units had while keeping their force pool as it is.