Proper defense not working... screen

[Magnum MGG]

Hello fellow gamers...

I got into CMBO late (6 months before CMBB), and only played point meeting engagements with fellow members of my gaming group, well with CMBB, I've only played points Meeting engagements again.

My question or request to the knowledgeable gamers... I suck I've played about 50 pbem games with both games and lost about 48 of them, (draws on the other 2)..

Heres basicly what I do...

Make 2 or 3 task force, put a few tanks in each team with some infantry support, a couple of recon vehicle to explore, a couple of spotters for artillery, maybe a sharpshooter or two...

I then spread them out and usually bring the center force up to the flag area to capture, then move the two flanking forces to move up destroy targets, come to there rear and take out the rest.. theres more to it of course, but thats the basics... pretty sound tactics I think..

BUT I'm sick of losing, I love the game, but always seem to lose... any tips on gameplay any of you more experienced players can share.

Attached is a screen of my most current battle, used the same strategy but got destroyed, (My Panzer iv's rounds would bounce off all it's targets, while my opponants KV1's and T34's would get one shot one kills on me. I've been issuing proper hull down commands and even shoot and scoot commands but still get eaten alived.

(this is near the end of the points battle, I got the flag but not defending it with much anymore.

any tips or ideas to a rookie player?

Thanks in advance...

[Stoffel]

Best for you to do is create a big assault force and hide it.

With the recon units you should find a weak spot ,or a place where not to many enemy units can spot you or fire at you.

Concentrate your artillery (even better is to buy a Stuka divebomber)at that point and smash through that gap with all your available units,if you have two spotters use the big calibre for HE and the smaller calibre for smoke,than explore your enemies rear area and swarm out.

Called Blitzkrieg.

Try to avoid engagements against superior forces,always engage T34 with more than 1 tank

,the short gun on early model IV pz isnt very usefull in frontal attacks on T34's

speed and outflanking are the key words

[Wildass69]

I don't know that much about CMBB or CMBO yet, as I have just started playing both. But I do know this; the subject matter of these games pertains to the very cardinal docterine of "Maneuver Warfare". And one of the principles of Manuever Warfare is that like elements do not effectively combat each other. Not optimumly anyway. In otherwords tanks should not be used as anti-tank weapons. Tanks are deep thrust attack weapons meant to shatter front lines and shred the rear eschlons of the enemy. I realize that tanks encounter(ed) tanks on the WWII battlefield and we all "nostalge" about such battles as Kursk and Targul Fumos but (imho) a pure tank battle should never happen. We often marvel at the Wehrmacht, especially in the early years of the war, at how the Germans achieved such astonishing results with, arguably inferior Panzers. We think in terms of how they were less armoured, undergunned and perhaps not even as mechanically sound {meaning too much diversity between models as well as less than optimal reliability) as many of their counterparts - yet they triumpted again and again. And we wonder how? I would argue that they were not inferior, that they were perfectly suited to their true purpose. The Germans DID understood the principles of Maneuver Warfare. Heck, they invented it! At least in it's modern form. The Panzers were well balanced between armour and firepower, and maneuverability in order to accomplish that ability to hit hard, hit fast and hit where they were least expected AND yet drive so deep so quickly as to totally disrupt the opposing army.

The best weapons to deal with KV-1s and T-34s are NOT PZIIIs and PZIVs. The best weapons are infantry units equipped with anti-tank weapons able to entice the tanks into favorable ground where close assault are more likely to succeed. Engineers (Pioneers) are especially good at dispatching tanks (At least they should be - we'll see in CMBB). And a few ATs such as High Velocity 50mm and 75mm at close range or that fabulous 88 and the occational Stuka. See, it ain't a matter of pound for pound slugging it out. It's a matter of outsmarting the enemy and denying him his advantages while exploiting your own. Avoid fighting on his terms and on his ground. Draw him into your terms.

Like I said I haven't been playing these games long. I'm still exploring the possiblities of the tools made available. So I can't tell you what WILL work yet. But the manuel says "...think about what would work in the real world..." so I'm suggesting to you what SHOULD work. Think in terms of combined forces. Study the terrain more closely and find ways to use it. Try to devise tactics that will put the enemy at a disadvantage and allow you to use your most optimal forces againt him. Use your Panzers to cut his heavy tanks him off from their retreat, supply and operational command rather than trying to "take them out". Let units more suited to either capturing or destroying them do the dirty work. And remember even General Heinz G. knew the only way to take out a KV-1 was to hit him in the grates.

The tutorial in CMBB used the scenario based on the legendary tale of the single KV-1 holding off the German attack because none of the Panzers were capable of destroying it. You are to play this scenario as the Russian.... No sweat; try playing it as the German and figure out how to rid yourself of that KV-1 without loosing your Bat! (Hint - getting behind a KV-1 with anything makes him NERVOUS - Then he makes mistakes!)

That's how the Wehrmach won in the summer of 1941 and it's how close the world came to a totally different outcome to the war. And it's how I intend to win at CMBB.

If you haven't read it, every "Virtual" Panzer Leader should read, "The Art of Maneuver" by Robert Leonhard.

[Patrick Moore]

Wildass69,

Thanks for the book recommendation. I need to read it! I've been playing CMBO for about 3 months and like Magnum I am frequently getting beat (by the comp to add insult to injury! ha ha), especially in the tank vs. tank department when attacking. In my current battle (Meyer's Decision 3) the TacAI is the Brit defender and taking out my panzers at ranges over ~1000m! I'm even losing tanks after being able to get off the first shot! (so much for superior german optics! ha ha)

Sounds like I need to use more smoke and more manuevering.

[86smopuim]

Hell, I still lose at both games all the time, and I'm old school. Played hundreds of versus human games.

I guess I just got used to losing. It's still #1 fun.

[Wildass69]

Patrick Moore, and others, just to encourage you a little - I just finished my first Operation in CMBB ("Blitzkrieg"), a five battle operation dated 6-22-41. I did it in three Battles. I'll admit that I did restart the op once from the start, after playing to about one third of the way through battle number 2 because I realized how badly I did NOT understand the CMBB "game" mechanics (I've only been playing about a week). But my battle plan didn't change; Panzers around the south (right) side of the town in the first battle, infantry around the north side in the second, enveloping the soviets forces in and west of the town. By the end of battle number 2 I completely occupied the town. Warfare is no longer about attrition. Warfare is about maneuver and "encouraging" the enemy to surrender. I found in EF2 that I typically could win any battle 2 to 5 turns quicker if I captured rather than killed (Killing takes too much time). It seems to work here too. The Germans enjoyed "Kill" ratios as high as 20 to 1 in the summer of '41 not because they killed everyone on the battlefield but because they maneuvered in such a way that the enemy forces had no choice but to give up. In war games such as EF2 CMBO and CMBB this factor is not so apparent until you play campaigns or operations where the results of your last battle directly effects the resources available to you in the current battle. In "Blitzkrieg", battle number 3 would have been much harder if I had frittered away my forces with a frontal assault - attrition warfare - and whippin up on those KV-2s in battle number 3 would have been much harder. As it was they were nearly the only real threat on the field and my units simply rushed by them to the far edge of the map. Once they were "cut off" they weren't so fiesty! And yes infantry took all three with the help of a StugIII at point blank range in one case. Did you know a Mark IIIH 50mm shell will simply bounce off a KV-2 even at point blank range? So I guess my point is that all the stuff I said above is pretty much valid for this game. Avoid fighting tanks with tanks .... unless they are Stuarts, T-26s or BT7s.... or Mark IIs. LOL!

Rats! I was suppose to get some Mark IVs in Battle Number 5 (for a night battle!) and some engineers with flame throwers in battle number 4. Oh well. Guess I'll just go have schnitzle and beer for the rest of the afternoon!

[ November 04, 2002, 12:44 AM: Message edited by: Wildass69 ]

[TSword]

Magnum,

I studied your picture a bit, how does it come your PzIV D is exposed like this ? T-34 or the like in every direction around it....

Your opponent seems to have a 1000 point tankforce atleast (If all are T-34s then even more). I suppose the game is an axis defence. What were your assets at start of game ?

1. There's absolutely no need to take your PzIV D so much forward unless you certainly know your enemy has lost the majority of it's armor already.

One tank is no tank. Put your tankforce behind a ridge in cover some distance behind the MLR and keep them there until the enemy has showed off most of its armor and you can assure firesuperiority over him. To reach this lure him into certain sectors piecemeal by use of AT assets or the like or even a heavy ari barrage may scatter him.

2. I see no enemy inf near your position, so try to use some inf to threaten and distract his tanks.

3. Your Pz4s need flankshots to be quickly succesful. Use them together with doorknocker guns en masse to panic and/or distract him, even cheap Pz2, 3.7cm AT guns can do this job very well.

4. When going into Hulldown pos always plan in a way that your tanks reach firing pos after 30 seconds of turn, so you don't have to expose them too long and can direct them back to cover in the next turn. Even a failed attack will bring caution into the attacker. He most probably will seek cover from your threat, this is the moment for another force to take a shot at them, this then will really unnerve him.

5. If possible have a secondary firingposition ready for each group to change between them, in this way you again force your enemy to disperse his force.

6. There are two possibilities your enemy can attack you: 1. As expected or 2. unexpected

In case of 1 you should have no big trouble in case 2 retreat, regroup, hide and check the implications on your initial tactics layout, is a revision necessary and possible ? Has the enemy already committed his main forces ? If a major revision is necessary you're in trouble, now improvise and try to reach a position again where you have firesuperiority. If no option is left try to wear him down, or surrender.

7. Prior to the start of game, check the map in detail for covered approaches important sectors, good defending positions. Then do a quick check how your enemy most probable will act, what approaches will he must he take ? What weapons might he use ? Try to create a battle plan and crosscheck it with the expected enemy action, will it work out ?

8. In case of QB-PBEMs buy a "conservative" force. In case of defender:

- Some TRPs and 1 heavy Artillery asset to really kill (150 mm).

- 1 or 2 Sharpshooters to make his tanks blind

- Some AT-guns (but not to much, 4 are a good medium, don't put them to far forward if possible)

- A decent mobile reserve/Counterforce which consists of armor and or selfprop AT guns. Plan to use them in pairs (In your mind count 2 tanks as one firing position)

- A lot of HMGs and infantry around 50 % or more of your force.

- One can never ever have enough on map mortars !

- Some Tankhunter teams should also be available.

In case of Attacker almost the same but you don't need killer artillery, emphasize must be on suppression (up to 10 cm Artillery). A lot of Infantry (include 1 additional LMG for every platoon if possible), and as always one can never ever have enough on map mortars, especially 5 cm are neat..A decent tankforce, whereas in early german go for numbers irrespective of gun size (starting with 20mm everything is ok), later you can reduce for quality.

Hope this can give you some ideas

Greets

Daniel

[Magnum MGG]

Thanks for the replies and info... studing hard. lol

That picture is from the end of the game, I'm pretty much doomed there.

All my games I've played, including the one above, was a 2000 point meeting engagment...

I moved quick and secured the flag from the get go, I then set up a defense, in the above game, may partner waited till half way through the game before he started moving in force.

He then overcame my units defending the flank and was then able to spread out all around me, then sqeeze me to death...

Like I said early, I believe my tactics, in a little way at least, are correct and proper. moved to the flag with armor and inf, got them in defense positions, then had to smaller force (2 armor and some inf) on both flanks they were olding but over ran, leaving my force exposed... by then too late to re-organize and assualt circling units.

I suck at understanding what units I should pick in these point games... my panzers were attacking but there rounds bouncing of his tanks like bb's... then he would take out one of my tanks with 1 or 2 shots. :confused:

thats what I need to work on.

[K Jonsson]

I noticed that your panzer was elite. Is your whole force elite? Then maybe you should try buying troops with lesser experience, remember that they are A LOT cheaper. Then you can 'afford' to lose some tanks and infantry platoons and still have a strong force left.

Also remember that you don't have to have all your forces near the flag to control it. All that is needed is one single squad. Maybe a platoon while the rest of the company is ready to counterattack if the enemy should be able to capture it. Doing that means you won't lose to much when heavy artillery begins to drop.

Using that tactic might seem to make your defensive position very weak, but in reality it probably makes it stronger. You should instead have additional troops on the flanks with a narrow LOS to the front of the flag. Doing that will almost make it certain that you will get flank shots against enemy tanks that approach. Assaulting infantry is easily (sometimes...) taken care of with a couple of MGs. Now if he tries a flanking manouver you will have more forces ready to deal with that threat.

You said that the games always turned out the same way. Always? Maybe you should just change tactics and try to throw him/them off guard?

Another thing you said was that your opponent didn't move his forces until half way through. This is something you should be able to take advantage of. Here are some simple ways to do that:

1 Don't defend the flag. Instead you should defend the nearest cover in front of them. Doing this forces your opponent to waste precious time taking an unimportant patch of woods. If he seems to be able to take it, bug out and drop your artillery on him. Chances are he won't have time to regroup for another assualt.

2. Guns, guns and guns. Maybe some more guns? Guns are small, cheap and deadly. They are even better in probe/defense/assault but if you have half the game(30 or 40 turns) to set them up you should be able to find good positions. Even by itself a small gun can move a surprisingly long way in 10/15 turns(how long are the games you play?), and that should be enough to get flankin shots at tanks trying to flank you. Or you can gamble that your setup zone will have a nice patch of woods with good fields of fire which is just begging to have an 88 in it

3. A spoiler barrage can work wonders if he doesn't have much time left. Rockets should be fine, the delay won't matter because you will have had o lot of time to set it up. Or maybe some artillery with a lot of ammo and long reload time. The germans have some observers with only two guns (howitsers?), I haven't tried them but they should work fine. It's not killing that counts here but the delay they cause.

I hope this helps

/Kristian

[Wildass69]

I read with great interest all the suggestion and I'm sure they are very valuable. Again I'm new to the game. But if I might add, the Wehrmacht employed a 3 layer defense in depth that may also help. I don't recall the terms but I think you will get the picture: The first tier was called the outpost and it consisted of a fairly sparce line of infantry with the (expendable) purposes of offereing initial resistance to the attacker and early warning. About 100 meters back was the next line of defense which consisted of more infantry, HMGs and perhaps smaller guns. This line was intended to cover the outposts and when over run it was to this line that the outposts would fall back on. Approximately 100 meters behind this second line was the third line which consisted of still more infantry HGMs and heavier ATs again covering the second and outpost lines where possible. And it was a fallback position as well. Behind this line was the smaller artillery (mortars) more guns and if time permitted strongholds (pill boxes and bunkers or hopefully at least some type of prepared positions to fall back on. Panzers and other AFVs would also be in this area where they would offer support as the opportunity arose and prepare for counter attack. They were very much a fire brigade as well (They could be moved to plug holes). Generally this is a good position to hide your heaviest AT guns and a sweet little 88 or two. Most importantly this is where your reserves are. And you need reserves even if it's only a platoon!

Of course, this all depends on three factors: The terrain, the available resourses and of course the enemies attacking force. Nevertheless when properly assembled this defense is very effective. It does have a certain amount of flexabilty in that your lines can move laterally to bolster the area of attack if you feel certain a second attack in another spot is not eminant.

The bane of defense is that you must defend a lot of territory with a limited amount of resourses and yet the enemy has the option of attacking with all of his force in one tiny narrow front. Sometimes he is just gonna overwhelm you - thus the importance of reserves. But with pretty much equal forces (points to buy units with) there is no reason why you should not be able to hold your position... most of the time. In the old days they use to say it took 3 to 1 ratios of attacking forces to overcome defensive forces. I would submit that this is still true. It's just that in mobile warfare an attacker can stack his forces and hit very hard in one spot. This means the defense may be faced with much greater odds than 3:1 against it.

But being the new kid I may just be full of hot air....

[Panzer76]

Dont be too concerned about capturing the flags, your main objective should be the anhilation of the enemy. Sometimes it's better to lay ambushes for ur enemy when he tries to grab the objectives, and when he hes soundly beaten, move in for the flags.

PS, can I play you?

[Casey]

First, I have noticed your ko'ed Panzers are poorly grouped. In a large open map like the one shown keep all you AFVs grouped tightly in formation.

Seek hull down positions reletive to your objective.

Clear the way for your Panzers with troops but dont rush them forward too far eg. keep them within support of your tanks at all times.

Use Stugs for AT work then move up the Panzers to go to work on the infantry.

try playing a different date, 1944 for example which should give you more of a chance by purchasing more powerful Armour.

[Tripps]

Well, i've never really divulged my tactics before, but i've had a pretty good run in CMBO, and looks like it may continue in CMBB, so I figure why not share my hard earned knowledge

Before I begin, i'd like to say this has worked for me, and is my opinion, something may work for you, or it may not, but I will say, glean what you can, and make your own decisions

Ok, lets see, I reckon the biggest thing to winning this game is knowing your opponant.

In the initial game, this is hard, but in the following game(s) this is what wins it for me.

Look at their force composition, what do they like using, big heavy uber-tanks, lots of Inf, loads of guns, fast mobile light AFV's.

Do they rush the objective, do they wait for you to take it and then direct HE/arty the flags.

Once you have figured this out to a degree, you can then decide what kind of force to take, I still believe in combined arms, but depending on the situation (attacking/defending etc) you may drop one of these arms.

For example, i'm finishing a map now where I am defending against a probe with heavy hills, and I have taken no AFV's whatsoever, just Inf, guns, and arty. (lots of reverse hill side defense, with TRP's on the other side)

Also read the map in the setup and decide what your opponant is going to do.

My most recent 3k total victory is because I knew my opponant would rush the middle and head for these 2 large buildings, so I covered his approach, slowed him up, beat him there with HMG's and mobile 75 HE, and pretty much won the game in the first 3-4 turns as he then ran 50% of his Inf into prepared Inf defenses, not knowing I was already there, he also lost a lot of his support trying to remedy the situation.

So I won that game not because I had better equipment, but because I applied what I had in the best manner to counter his forces, all because I 'out-guessed' him.

You are just playing 2k QB ME's, fine.

What I would do in your situation, is what have I learned from my opponants playing style?

In the pic you have shown, I count a lot of Russian AVF's, a hell of a lot for a 2k ME, and also he waited for you to move forward, before he engaged.

So, although not conclusive by any means, my next battle with this fella IF you were to follow your original method of advancing and taking the objectives early I would do away with any PIII/IV's altogether.

I would take one platoon of Stug's, preferably the IIIF, as the T34's up to 44 I think cannot penetrate the frontal armor of these.

I would take AT guns, probably 2 x 75mm's, and 2 x 57mm (or whatever medium calibre)with transport.

2-3 Arty, 1-2 light for smoke, and 1 heavy-ish.

Maybe some HE guns, with that many AFV's, he is not going to have much in the way of Inf.

And the rest of your points on Inf with support (HMG's etc)

The basic tactic would be to sum up the map, and then decide right, he's going to wait till I have rushed the flags, see what I have, then take it out.

So I would then look at the best positions to place my guns to ambush him when he finally advances, this could be in your setup zone, or moved up (you have transport availabe for them, if they are not used because you set the guns up in your zone, then look at something else you can transport, MHG's for example, or use them as a reserve, a fast mobile one), and thats my target, not the flags.

The flags IMO are secondary, the primary target is to remove the enemy, then you can achieve the secondary target.

In your pic, and it's hard not seeing the whole layout, but I dont seem to see the point of your destroyed AFV's, as in, what are they doing there? you have advanced PAST the objective, with maybe no Inf support, for no reason I can see, and he has destroyed them from his setup zone, and then advanced past you and used his AFV's to I presume cause a lot of hurt

I could be wrong, i'm getting all this from 1 picture without seeing the battle unfold, but I would not have advanced those AFV's, if I had taken the flags already, and that 1 flag I can see has quite a lot of cover around it, I would have setup dispirsed around it (to avoid arty), with AT assets waiting for his assault. The PIII/IV's would have been back in reserve to see what eventuates.

In a nutshell, thats the guts of it, know what your enemy is going to do, and counter that.

If you do want AFV duels, and I dont recommend it, make sure yours are better

Try and use your AFV's vs Inf, and your guns vs AFV's.

Someone just mentioned the fact that your remanining AFV was 'Elite', was this because you chose the highest experience available, or the random element that made that unit elite, and the rest were veteran etc?

I seem to take Vet in CMBB so far as my experience level of choice, but thinking of Reg for the Axis up to 44, as the Russian "elite" is comaprable to Axis "Regular" IIRC

In regards to your 2-3 pronged attack, with equal forces in each, I dont tend to do this.

This would just spread your forces out to much.

It will work sometimes, but I tend to favour groups based on the terrain and what I think the enemy will do, having a combined arms force makes up for this, because if you load the AFV arm, and its not good 'tank-country', your screwed

Look instead to stack one area where you think it will exploit him, be it either the middle, or one of the flanks.

In your situation where you like to rush ahead, leave some AFV's and mobile reserves behind at first, dont show everything at once, look for sweet spots to place them to counter any unexpected moves.

Anyways, for what its worth, this is how I am winning my games

Take what you will.

I wouldnt mind discussing this any further if you have any questions

Cheers

[Tripps]

Blah, just read this

Originally posted by Magnum MGG:

Like I said early, I believe my tactics, in a little way at least, are correct and proper. moved to the flag with armor and inf, got them in defense positions,

I wouldnt do this, knowing that he wont advance til later, I would just move Inf and AT guns, and not just to the objective, but to wherever is best to kill him when he moves forward to engage you and make the bid for the flags.

Originally posted by Magnum MGG:

then had to smaller force (2 armor and some inf) on both flanks they were olding but over ran, leaving my force exposed...

Try an AT gun with maybe MG's/Inf guarding each flank. Ambush

Works out cheaper too, 1-2 x hidden 57mm AT gun at close range, or 1x75mm at long range, is cheaper than 2 x AFV's, granted you cannot move them as easy, but what is their purpose?

To guard your flanks from AFV's, tanks are not the best way to do this

Originally posted by Magnum MGG:

by then too late to re-organize and assualt circling units.

I suck at understanding what units I should pick in these point games... my panzers were attacking but there rounds bouncing of his tanks like bb's... then he would take out one of my tanks with 1 or 2 shots. :confused:

thats what I need to work on.

Like I said in my previous post, if you insist on a AFV dual, make sure your AFV's are better, StugIIIF front on will leave him screaming at his innefectual T34's, while the other Stugs have a 50/50 chance...

Dont rely on tanks to much, their real purpose, was to break through and cause disruptment in the rear areas. Rely on your Inf, they are the ones that do the hard work.

cheers

[ November 10, 2002, 07:33 PM: Message edited by: Tripps ]

[DWG]

From your picture it appears that all your tanks are Pz IVDs. Don't take Pz IVD's - with that short 75mm gun they were used more in an infantry support role. If you're going to play early war German, and you know you're going to be facing T-34s and KV's, you are far better off going with Stugs and Pz III's; their anti tank capabilities are far better than the Pz IVD's.

[Eden Smallwood]

Originally posted by Magnum MGG:

BUT I'm sick of losing, I love the game, but always seem to lose...

Have you played all the scenarios vs the AI? All the ones on the CD? All the non-CD ones at Scenario Depot? Have you played them again, and again?

Some will say that the AI is just the AI, and a human can be much sneakier. Sure, sure, no doubt. But by playing the AI you *will* learn what works.

LOL that image is really sad!

I love what the other guy said about ignoring the flags- me too! It's about *destroying* the enemy, and destroying the enemy is about *local superiority*. Hth,

Eden