Stuka zu Fuss

[Xavier]

Hello,

I have several question about this weapon (basically a sdkfz251/1 with 6 rocket launchers).

1/ Was it an infantry weapon (I mean like a mounted weapon on a APC) or a part of artillery units ?

2/ How common was this weapon?

3/ Is there any unit equipped whith these weapon in Normandy?

Thanks:)

[Panzer Leader]

I'm no expert but I've seen photos of shot up stuka-zu-fuss in the Falaise pocket. I would guess it falls into the "self propelled artillery" category, but I could be wrong.

Incidentally, they mounted those box-rocket launchers on anything that could move. I hve seen the SZF mounted on everything from french tankettes to Polish tractors. I've also seen the kind that just set up on the ground. Very dynamic weapon. I imagine they were pretty common but I would also guess, due to the fact that it was just a box angled n the direction they wanted to fire. Still pretty cool though.

[Xavier]

Originally posted by Panzer Leader:

I'm no expert but I've seen photos of shot up stuka-zu-fuss in the Falaise

Exactly the info I was looking for

[MikeyD]

Ah, the old Nebelwerfer -- "smoke firer" or something like that in translation I believe. I think the name was a ruse to keep the true nature of the weapon a secret. I sometimes have difficulty translating CMBO 'official' names with the more common designations -- this is the German 300mm rocket artillery, right?

[reichpapers]

Actually the vehicle you are talking about is the Panzerwerfer42. It was an Opal Blitz mounted on a Maultier chassis. It had a completely closed on rear with a rear door and upper deck for loading the 10 tubes. It was not an SdKfz. 251/1. It did have a similar slanting armor features of the 251/1 though. I heard they were great at playing hell. Great mobility, fast fire and go. Basically they were a nebelwerfer on an armored truck. If not pic is below try the link:

Panzerwerfer 42

[Panzer Leader]

I thought he was talking about a standard 251/1 with three "box-rockets" mounted on each side. That is what is called the stuka zu fuss, or "Stuka on foot".

The panzerwerfer has a nebelwerfer 10-tube launcher mounted on top of either a maultier os sWS half-track. Totally different.

[Brian]

Originally posted by Xavier:

Hello,

I have several question about this weapon (basically a sdkfz251/1 with 6 rocket launchers).

I take it you're referring to the Mittlerer Schuetzenpanzerwagen mit Wurfrahmen SdKfz 251/1?

1/ Was it an infantry weapon (I mean like a mounted weapon on a APC) or a part of artillery units ?

On the Eastern Front, where the Stuka zu Fuss originated, it was part of infantry units.

2/ How common was this weapon?

Not very. Its value was limited. It was primarily designed as a stop-gap weapon for use in street fighting on the Eastern Front.

In France, other vehicles took its place, such as the Gepanzer Munitionsschlepper UE(f) mit Wurfrahmen or RW auf UE(f) or the Infanterie Schlepper UE(f) fur 28/32cm Wurfrahmen or the 28/32cm Wurfrahmen auf PzKpfw 35H(f) all of which used captured French AFV's for their basis. Much more common was the 15cm Panzerwurfer 42 auf `Maultier' (Opel) SdKfz 4/1 or later 15cm Panzerwerfer 42 (Zehnling) auf Schwerer Wehrmacht-Schlepper which were on half-tracked chassis. They tended to be issued however to either armoured or artillery formations, rather than infantry ones, as far as I've been able to find out.

3/ Is there any unit equipped whith these weapon in Normandy?

The ones I named definitly saw service in France. As to whether or not they saw service in Normandy I have no idea. I suspect some of the 15cm Panzerwurfer 42 auf `Maultier' (Opel) SdKfz 4/1 along with the three French chassis were but primarily in the indirect artillery role rather than the direct support role.

[ April 10, 2002, 12:11 PM: Message edited by: Brian ]

[Mace]

Originally posted by reichpapers:

Actually the vehicle you are talking about is the Panzerwerfer42. It was an Opal Blitz mounted on a Maultier chassis. It had a completely closed on rear with a rear door and upper deck for loading the 10 tubes. It was not an SdKfz. 251/1. It did have a similar slanting armor features of the 251/1 though.

The first 'Stuka Zu Fuss' was a SdKfz 251 (Ausf fitted with rockets strapped to the side. The correct title was SdKfz 251 mittlere Schitzenpanzerwagen (Wurfrahmen 40) Ausf B.

I believe there is some documentation of it being used in Stalingrad, so I guess that places it on the battlefield circa late 1942 at the earliest.

Visit Missing Lynx to see a late war one.

Mace

[ April 10, 2002, 09:59 PM: Message edited by: Mace ]

[Brian]

Originally posted by Mace:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by reichpapers:

Actually the vehicle you are talking about is the Panzerwerfer42. It was an Opal Blitz mounted on a Maultier chassis. It had a completely closed on rear with a rear door and upper deck for loading the 10 tubes. It was not an SdKfz. 251/1. It did have a similar slanting armor features of the 251/1 though.

The first 'Stuka Zu Fuss' was a SdKfz 251 (Ausf fitted with rockets strapped to the side. The correct title was SdKfz 251 mittlere Schitzenpanzerwagen (Wurfrahmen 40) Ausf B.

I believe there is some documentation of it being used in Stalingrad, so I guess that places it on the battlefield circa late 1942 at the earliest.

Visit Missing Lynx to see a late war one.

Mace</font>

[tools4fools]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

Ah, the old Nebelwerfer -- "smoke firer" or something like that in translation I believe.

It would be a "fogthrower"...

Nebel = fog

Werfer = thrower

[Mattias]

Originally posted by Brian:

What makes you draw this conclusion Brian?

The 28/32 cm rockets themselves were ready for use in 1940 and the mountings for putting them on halftracks went into production late that same year.

Development had began in the 30's alongside with the 15 cm rocket used in the Nebelwerfers. I have so far not seen anything clandestine with the designation of the latter weapon by the way. Just as the chemical mortar units in the US army they Nebeltruppen were supposed to use their weapons to project smoke, gas and HE as required. Gas was not used and smoke saturation turned out to be of little need when compared to the urgently required use as "auxiliary" artillery.

Though the Nebeltruppen were issued the 28/32 cm rockets too their short range saw their used turn into the hands of the Pioneere for clearing of strong points and removal of obstacles.

The mounted variants were obviously the most flexible but the rockets were also fired from stationary launchers for saturation or blocking bombardments.

Being in production into 45' almost 600.000 rockets of the 28/32 cm type were made, 125.000 in 1941 only.

In my sources I see no reference to either stop, gap or east, and their use in urban warfare being just one of many tasks.

--

M.

[Brian]

Originally posted by Mattias:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Brian:

What makes you draw this conclusion Brian?

The 28/32 cm rockets themselves were ready for use in 1940 and the mountings for putting them on halftracks went into production late that same year.

Development had began in the 30's alongside with the 15 cm rocket used in the Nebelwerfers. I have so far not seen anything clandestine with the designation of the latter weapon by the way. Just as the chemical mortar units in the US army they Nebeltruppen were supposed to use their weapons to project smoke, gas and HE as required. Gas was not used and smoke saturation turned out to be of little need when compared to the urgently required use as "auxiliary" artillery.

Though the Nebeltruppen were issued the 28/32 cm rockets too their short range saw their used turn into the hands of the Pioneere for clearing of strong points and removal of obstacles.

The mounted variants were obviously the most flexible but the rockets were also fired from stationary launchers for saturation or blocking bombardments.

Being in production into 45' almost 600.000 rockets of the 28/32 cm type were made, 125.000 in 1941 only.

In my sources I see no reference to either stop, gap or east, and their use in urban warfare being just one of many tasks.

--

M.</font>

Mattias, I was referring to the Stuka zu Fuss on the SdKfz 251, not the rocket, which I believe your referring to. The 28/32cm rocket was indeed deveoped long before the Eastern Front and used before that but as you note, its range was limited and it was pressed into service by the Pioneeres rather than the Nebeltruppen who were issued with longer range weapons. However, the Mittler Schutzenpanzerwagon mit Wurfrahmen SdKfz 251 was marginal at best. The crew had to dismount, before firing and it has the sort of look of a field expedient lash-up which was later developed into something slightly better but never really lost its primitive look.

[ April 12, 2002, 12:32 AM: Message edited by: Brian ]

[Wulfe]

Technical data for Stuka zu Fuss

SdKfz 251/1 mittlerer Shutzenpanzerwagen (Wurfrahmen 40). Weight: 9 tons. Crew:7. Armament: Two 7.92mm MG34 or 42. Ammunition: 2,010. 6-Wurfrahmen 40. 28cm Five Sprengranate (HE). One 32cm Flammgranate (incendiary round). After the campaign in France in 1940, J. Gast KG. Berlin ordered to develop projector for the Wurfgerat 40, which would be fitted on the m SPW. The resulting vehicle could be tranversed by the driver, and elevation of +5 to +40 degrees could be set on each projector frame. Firing took 10 seconds and gave the 3rd Panzerpioneer Zug heavy bombardment capability up to 1.9Km for Spregranate and 2.2Km for Flammgranate.

Just thought you like some more info on this weapon system.

Wulfe

[Mattias]

My primary sources here, "Enzyklopädie Deutscher Waffen", a reworked and translated version of a book by Gander & Chamberlain and http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Waffen/raketenwerfer.htm are not quite agreeing on things but at least the former clearly states that the name "Stuka zu Fuss" refers to the rocket system itself, not the tracked system.

The same source calls the halftrack mounted 28/32 cm launcher the most successful German artillery rocket system. Since all werfers are covered in this chapter I take that to mean in competition with all rockets, from 15 cm to 30 cm.

This statement could be plain wrong, it could also mean that the other systems were rather bad or, possibly, that the 28/32's were considered quite usable...

Originally posted by Brian:

Easily mounted and exchanged disposable launchers or crude but effective, are other names one could choose to apply I guess. In any event, they were produced to the very end of the war and that is at least some little indication, despite further development of the system being shelved in 42.

This wasn't the best over all weapon system in the war but I am still a little curious what you are building your perspective on.

Do you have any information on what sights were used for aiming the rockets?

--

M.

[Brian]

Originally posted by Mattias:

My primary sources here, "Enzyklopädie Deutscher Waffen", a reworked and translated version of a book by Gander & Chamberlain and http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Waffen/raketenwerfer.htm are not quite agreeing on things but at least the former clearly states that the name "Stuka zu Fuss" refers to the rocket system itself, not the tracked system.

Interesting. I've always read that it was referring to the tracked system, not the rockets but I'm quite willing to be corrected, Mattias.

The same source calls the halftrack mounted 28/32 cm launcher the most successful German artillery rocket system. Since all werfers are covered in this chapter I take that to mean in competition with all rockets, from 15 cm to 30 cm.

This statement could be plain wrong, it could also mean that the other systems were rather bad or, possibly, that the 28/32's were considered quite usable...

Indeed it could. I'd like to see their definition of "successful". I'd suggest that none of the tracked or semi-tracked rocket systems were exactly perfect, as used by any of the combatants. The rockets on the SdKfz 251 were IMO rather less than perfect because as I said, basically you rocked up with your rockets, aimed them and then abandoned ship in order to fire them. Where did the crew go? Out into the harsh cold world, away from their (admittedly limited but still better than nothing) armour protection. I'm actually rather surprised no one thought of adding some OHP to the vehicles to protect the crews from the backblast.

The 15cm Nebelwerfer on the Opel Maultier suffered from the overloading of the chassis but at least it allowed the crew to remain within the vehicle while it was being used. The sWS version improved on it, by providing a better chassis with more motive power. Both however were not intended to fulfill the same role as the rockets on the SdKfz 251.

Originally posted by Brian:

it has the sort of look of a field expedient lash-up which was later developed into something slightly better but never really lost its primitive look.

Easily mounted and exchanged disposable launchers or crude but effective, are other names one could choose to apply I guess. In any event, they were produced to the very end of the war and that is at least some little indication, despite further development of the system being shelved in 42.

The Sherman was obviously inadequate by 1944 as well but it continued in production long after its inadequacies were demonstrated, Mattias. The "Stuka zu Fuss" rockets were used on "normal" towed, artillery rocket systems as well, despite their short range, so perhaps the mass of production went to that use rather than to the short-range, direct sighted weapon systems? That the weapon system was still in use in 1945 indicates nothing more than (a) it was adequate and ( there was nothing available which was better to replace it.

This wasn't the best over all weapon system in the war but I am still a little curious what you are building your perspective on.

20+ years of reading plus 10 years of direct military experience.

Do you have any information on what sights were used for aiming the rockets?

All my reference refer to a set of posts on the bonnet of the half-track for azimuth and some simple form of sight for elevation. I have a picture of a Infanterie Schlepper UE(f) fur 28/32cm Wurfrahmen which is being demonstrated to a group of high ranking German officers, including Rommel before the invasion. It has a fairly large piece of ironmongery in front of the commander/gunner's position which is described as a "sighting vane". I suspect something similar albeit smaller was in use on the SdKfz 251.

[Panzer Leader]

Maximum range of 2,000 meters? These babies ought to be included on board!

I wonder what minimum range was? Firing took 10 seconds? Surely that doesn't include re-loading, or those soldaten would REALLY be hustling!

[ April 12, 2002, 09:06 AM: Message edited by: Panzer Leader ]

[M Hofbauer]

They (SdKfz 251 m sWurfrahmen 41) were not used as single pieces for attack (but engineers indeed did use single rounds carried on foot -*hence* the name "Stuka zu Fuss", on the HT it would be a "Stuka auf Halbketten"- for tactical battle uses) but were used for area saturation, relying on their blast (Gasschlagwirkung) effect because of their high inaccuracy which became irrelevant in mass use. Therefore inclusion in CM is not recommendable.

They were fired from outside the vehicle. Mounting them on the HT was simply a good means of transporting and, especially exiting the launch area quickly in an armored vehicle since the rockets were rather conspicuous in terms of both sight and sound. Mounting them on the HT made them much less susceptible to counter-artillery.

Oh, and yes, Mattias is (as usual) right, it was available late 1941 IIRC.

[JasonC]

All of the halftrack rockets were artillery weapons. They were relatively rare, only a few hundred fielded (15 cm mostly), making them rare compared to other rockets and quite rare compared to other armed halftracks or artillery systems generally.

Yes there were units in Normandy equipped with self-propelled rocket launchers - there were 15 of them in the 7th Werfer brigade, which fought on the British sector near Caen from mid June onward. Organizationally that was the first battery of each of the first two battalions of the 2nd regiment of the brigade. The 21st Panzer also had one battery of them, which should mean 6, as the 10th battery of the divisional artillery. These were all 15cm versions, however, as far as I have been able to determine.

There were a total of 13 Werfer battalions in Normandy, 10 fighting on the British front (divisional battalions with 1SS, 2SS, and 12SS, one independent SS battalion - 102 SS werfer - and 6 battalions in the 7 werfer brigade) and 3 in a fortress unit that fought in Cherbourg (101 fortress werfer regiment). The 21 armored self propelled launchers above were on the order of 10% of the force.

As for the bigger rockets, one battalion in the 7 Werfer brigade had 21 cm launchers and one battalion had 30 cm launchers. From everything I've seen, the others were all the most common, vanilla, 15 cm version. As for why the Germans regarded the bigger ones as more effective, it is obviously just a matter of larger HE warheads being more effective in an innaccurate weapon. It is easier to get effective coverage in the wide scatter of rockets from bigger explosions than from small ones. But the 15 cm versions were far more numerous, with more ammo available for them as well.

Sure you dismount to fire them. The benefit of having an armored and self-propelled version is faster "scooting" after shooting, which matters because the range of these systems was not long compared to conventional tube artillery. Smoke trails marked the firing location, making it relatively easy for the enemy to shoot back. Counterbattery fire was thus a serious issue for rocket units, and the faster they could get out of dodge after a fire mission, the better. Being armored helped with shrapnel if you weren't as fast as the enemy artillery, too. But it was a straight artillery weapon and the purpose of the (light) armor was to protect against counterbattery. They were not assault guns, and they certainly don't belong in CM scale tactical fights. Except as rocket FOs, that is.

[ April 12, 2002, 01:02 PM: Message edited by: JasonC ]

[Xavier]

Thank you for all these precious informaions:)

[Panzer Leader]

JasonC, thank you for the information on specific units that had these rocket launchers.

I do however, have to disagree with your assumption that they do not belong on a CM battlefield. With a maximum range of 1900 - 2100 meters, it would be difficult to utilize them effectively on what in CMBB ought to be "average-sized" maps.

I think you are disagreeing the NO artillery belongs "on screen" in a CM battle, and I think that is too bad. I would love to pre-place artillery in the set-up face, and I would REALLY love to assault the enemy's betteries!

However, that is somewhat beside the point, as some artillery units, especially "mobile" units stayed very close to the main line and I think should therefore be modelled.

As for them being used to "assault" or whatever, that is just dumb. I just want a more versatile and varied battlefield. Besides these, there are other artillery units whose range makes them inappropriate for simple "off-board artillery." I believe the 120mm mortar is one of them...

[Mattias]

The plausibility of including the 28/32 cm rockets, mounted on halftracks or otherwise, in CM has already been discussed at length in at least one earlier thread.

The conclusion at that time was that BTS was giving a clear NO to inclusion. Among the reasons given for this decision was the too long minimum range, which was felt to put them outside the scope of CM.

Further it was indicated that the small ammunition load out and it's special purpose character was seen as less attractive features.

My general impression was that BTS felt that this was a borderline weapon scale wise and one that would be in the danger zone for over use and ahistorical use. In short generally disruptive to a "tight" RL oriented game.

--

[Digging a bit I found Steves answer]

1.

Since this resurfaced, and there was no commentary made by us originally, I will make some comments now...

At best this is a borderline on-map weapon (six pack version). If the map is at least 3500km deep perhaps. But anything smaller and it is a definate no. Think about it. If the map were 2000km deep (which is pretty deep BTW) then the HT would have to sit on the map edge and fire at stuff on the opposite edge. Not much flexibility or purpose here and impossible to use if the map wasn't very deep at all.

We don't include things like the 120mm mortar on map for exactly the same reason, or any other form of nebelwerfer for that matter. So these are certainly not going in. There is really no benefit game wise, unless you are in the CC3 direct fire camp. We aren't

Also, how would we handle the ammo situation? I mean, how many rockets could be stored INSIDE the 251? None? So if they were on the map they would be a one shot deal, and that doesn't seem either realistic or usefull.

Sorry, no go.

2.

What you are talking about is introducing a feature that can only work using special, and perhaps artificial (i.e. not historically accurate) situations. They really have no place on a CM sized battlefield other than to make people go "cooooool". Which is probably why they were put into CC3

There are probably 100 other features and vehicle models that are far more worthy of our time than this.

[Note, at this point the minimum range was understood to be over 1000 meters]

--

As for it's capacity I seem to recall that being pretty well nailed down.

The six rockets could be fired in 10 seconds and reach out to 1925/2200 meters with a 50% hit zone of 80/90 meters (L/B) for the 28cm and 100/110 for the 32cm rocket.

Minimum range to a ground level target was 500 and 600 meters (or even as short as 300/400 meters, numbers for 500/600 meters though) respectively, with a 50% zone of 160/20 for the 28cm and 170/20 for the 32 cm.

To those unfortunate to be at the receiving end would be delivered a HE warhead weighing 50 Kg, in the case of the 28 cm rocket, or a 45 Kg napalm type charge.

These numbers can be compared with the 1.31 Kg and 9.5 Kg charges in the 15 and 21 cm rockets...

--

M.

[ April 12, 2002, 08:14 PM: Message edited by: Mattias ]

[Brian]

Originally posted by Mattias:

The plausibility of including the 28/32 cm rockets, mounted on halftracks or otherwise, in CM has already been discussed at length in at least one earlier thread.

The conclusion at that time was that BTS was giving a clear NO to inclusion. Among the reasons given for this decision was the too long minimum range, which was felt to put them outside the scope of CM.

Further it was indicated that the small ammunition load out and it's special purpose character was seen as less attractive features.

Well, some of those criticisms will now have to go by the board, with CMBB's promised increase of maps to 9km square.