Mick_Oz Posted September 2, 2002 Share Posted September 2, 2002 I really like the human wave option for the Russian infantry. It's just learning how to optimise it that will take a bit of doing. Anyone want to suggest the optimum distance to the objective to begin a human wave assault. For example, if I have 600 metres to an objective, at what stage would I normally initiate the human wave? (let's keep terrain out of it for the sake of the argument).. .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Harrison Posted September 2, 2002 Share Posted September 2, 2002 I was about to play as the attacking russians again, and I wanted to try this new option out. Does it increase your troops morale as they advance?? Has anyone had any real success with it yet?? Chad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rvalle Posted September 2, 2002 Share Posted September 2, 2002 Originally posted by Chad Harrison: I was about to play as the attacking russians again, and I wanted to try this new option out. Does it increase your troops morale as they advance?? Has anyone had any real success with it yet?? ChadPossible Spoilers! . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . I've been playing a friend in the Yelnia battle and I tried to do Human Wave movement. The problem is that the troops are Green/Conscript. A little bit of mortar fire was able to pin/break/panic 22 squads and platoon leaders. Once they were moving again a little bit of rifle fire was able to again pin the troops. I ended up with a platoon leader making it all the way to the target without any supporting troops! Needless to say... I need to work on this some. I think if you could get a Human Wave to come right on the back of an art barrage it would be effective. Getting the timing down right would be tricky. rvalle [ September 02, 2002, 12:30 AM: Message edited by: rvalle ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Posted September 2, 2002 Share Posted September 2, 2002 {spoilers!!!] I'd like to know what the difference is between plain old "running" and "human wave". So far I see no benefit. Human waving my guys in the tutorial right towards one fox holes did exactly what you'd expect. Laid waste to the Russians who broke and ran instantly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Harrison Posted September 2, 2002 Share Posted September 2, 2002 Originally posted by rvalle: ***your story above with possible spoilers***That was my same experience with advancing in any fashion. I suppose that those types of troops are not the best for attacking!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OGSF Posted September 2, 2002 Share Posted September 2, 2002 So, besides the bit where the troops start running the last 80 yards or so, what is the point of the "human wave" command? I mean as opposed to using the move, assault and other such commands? I tried it a few times in one of the scenarios and it seems like a d*mn stupid way to waste troops. So what is the point? Use up enemy ammo? Charging with broomsticks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Harrison Posted September 2, 2002 Share Posted September 2, 2002 Originally posted by Phoenix: {spoilers!!!] I'd like to know what the difference is between plain old "running" and "human wave". So far I see no benefit. Human waving my guys in the tutorial right towards one fox holes did exactly what you'd expect. Laid waste to the Russians who broke and ran instantly.Atleast they get a cool team yell when they do a human wave. I thought that was cool! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leakyD Posted September 2, 2002 Share Posted September 2, 2002 I tried HW in the tutorial. Snuck up right in front of the german AT gun, used MG's (w/ covered arc) and the mortar to keep their heads down, and went for it. All the squads broke right as they left the tree line (so much for suppressive fire), but the leader made it....who was then prompty waxed. I would think low quality troops would need this type of attack, as it's the one unique command the ruskies have available to them. May have to do w/ terrain, or weather, or something else...guess we'll have to wait a few weeks and find out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benpark Posted September 2, 2002 Share Posted September 2, 2002 I was wondering why the "run" command takes place instead of the "assault" command. I would assume that the point of the human wave allways ends in an all out attack? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgivney Posted September 2, 2002 Share Posted September 2, 2002 Maybe if you set up a few MG's or NKVD squads behind the Human Waves they won't break as quickly. Not a bad idea... NKVD squads: like a Company CO with +2 Morale and +2 Command, but they fire on your troops when they do break. [ September 02, 2002, 01:07 AM: Message edited by: mcgivney ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_argie Posted September 2, 2002 Share Posted September 2, 2002 I just experimented a bit on Yelnia. Some things first: - Assault is a movement that implies Fire and Cover, not an all for it tun to the objective. Conscripts aren't trained enough to do it properly, as they can't use Cover Arcs. - Human Wave works better for short distances. I don't know what kind of bonus it gave, but the Conscripts keep advancing, breaking wave after wave, but slowly advancing. - If you tries it from long distance, the minimal suppresive fire you get, break all your attack at once. So, I think the way to use it, from only one experience attacking against the AI at Yelnia, is to have several layers of Conscripts troops doing Human Wave turn after turn, with some HQs with good Moral bonus behind them. The first wave do nothing. The second put your force 20 meters away. The third gives you 50 meters more... Meanwhile, the first and second are recovering as they can for maybe 5 to 8 minutes, when you can start it again. But this time facing even less suppresive fire (assuming you were using your tanks and Green and regular troops for something more than Human Waves themselves). A crude tactic, but eventually works... Took me 22 turns to make the AI surrender... Defense now really works... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_argie Posted September 2, 2002 Share Posted September 2, 2002 I forgot! I never put a charge in HW for more than 100 meters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benpark Posted September 2, 2002 Share Posted September 2, 2002 That is a sound description of how it should work. Of course, it is an insane tactic to start with, but entirely historical. That "Oooorah" is going to be extra scary in a night scenario... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laxx Posted September 2, 2002 Share Posted September 2, 2002 dang, i keep thinking about "Enemy at the Gates" human wave scene.... ---------------------------- Nikita Khrushchev: You won't give up the brigde! I don't care if you lost half your men, lose the other half! Lose yourself! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laxx Posted September 2, 2002 Share Posted September 2, 2002 and the number 1 reason why Human Wave breaks down quickly when under enemy fire, HMG, artillery..... they doan look too confident.... sorry i got carried away with the EatG thing... ------------------ laxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted September 2, 2002 Share Posted September 2, 2002 There are several advantages to the human wave. First of all, the initial walk is faster than a usual MOVE command, but doesn't tire as much as running. Secondly, during the assault, troops receive a morale bonus. The key to using the human wave successfully is to use masses of attackers against small enemy positions. If you try to charge into the enemy front line, you'll get slaughtered - just like in real life. Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mace Posted September 2, 2002 Share Posted September 2, 2002 Originally posted by OGSF: So, besides the bit where the troops start running the last 80 yards or so, what is the point of the "human wave" command? I mean as opposed to using the move, assault and other such commands? I tried it a few times in one of the scenarios and it seems like a d*mn stupid way to waste troops. So what is the point? Use up enemy ammo? Charging with broomsticks?Sorry....I have no idea what you said, must be your accent. Mace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firefly Posted September 2, 2002 Share Posted September 2, 2002 When I played the tutorial using the written instructions, after I'd got slaughtered using my own cooky tactics, the human wave attackers only lost a couple of men and succesfully got into the woods in a fit condition to mop up the remaining Hun. [ September 02, 2002, 05:57 AM: Message edited by: Firefly ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackhorse Posted September 2, 2002 Share Posted September 2, 2002 My human wave attack ended up looking more like a human ripple attack/defend/counterattack/I know my duty/Where is my air support/to the battle/He said yes Triebig/ He said Yes/ Louder!/Louder! Some pointers from the experts would be greatly appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John D Salt Posted September 2, 2002 Share Posted September 2, 2002 Originally posted by benpark: I was wondering why the "run" command takes place instead of the "assault" command. I would assume that the point of the human wave allways ends in an all out attack?As far as I can make out so far, "assault" means that troops are fighting through by fire and movement. I'm not entirely clear what the exact difference is between this and "advance", although one might assume more fire and less movement the closer one gets to the objective. "Human wave", on the other hand, appears to be what I would call a good old-fashioned screaming-Jesus bayonet charge. I'm a bit bewildered by the choice of title -- surely "Human wave" is a Korean-war phrase -- and I don't understand why the command is reserved to the Russians. Apart from anything else, this seems in direct contradiction to the policy of not having "national characteristics". I understand that a morale bonus is conferred on the chargers, but is there any morale effect on the target of the charge? That, I would have thought, would have been the means whereby such tactics could prove effective. If the defenders keep their nerve and keep firing, the morale of the attackers determines only how many of them get killed before they are driven to ground. Pesonally, the infantry command I've found the biggest boon so far is "move to contact", especislly for movement in woods. All the best, John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Harrison Posted September 2, 2002 Share Posted September 2, 2002 Originally posted by Moon: There are several advantages to the human wave. First of all, the initial walk is faster than a usual MOVE command, but doesn't tire as much as running. Secondly, during the assault, troops receive a morale bonus. The key to using the human wave successfully is to use masses of attackers against small enemy positions. If you try to charge into the enemy front line, you'll get slaughtered - just like in real life. MartinIn ASL you got a morale bonus to your human wave, and they worked okay at times. How much of morale bonus do you recieve for a human wave? If you have more than one platoon doing a human wave at the same time, does that increase your morale even more? Logically it should, and I think it should in CMBB, especially for early year russians troops. An entire company doing a human wave should have one heck of a morale bonus! Chad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Harrison Posted September 2, 2002 Share Posted September 2, 2002 Originally posted by mcgivney: Maybe if you set up a few MG's or NKVD squads behind the Human Waves they won't break as quickly. Not a bad idea... NKVD squads: like a Company CO with +2 Morale and +2 Command, but they fire on your troops when they do break.If anything, I think that would be a great addition to CMBB, and yes it would be in the scope of the game. If your troops break and run to the rear, they get shot until they go back to the front! You could even give the NKVD their own kill line at the AAR screen. Chad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ymir Posted September 2, 2002 Share Posted September 2, 2002 Here are some of my thoughts about "the human wave". My theroy in the use of human wave had it´s birth while playing ASL "Red Barriceds" as Russian. ASL is not the same game as CMBB (a boardgame vs a comp. game) but I feel sure it will be the same ballgame of tactics when playing CMBB vs a human player. 1. Human wave is just something to be used in urban asault starting close up to the main line of defence. Exp. crossing a street. Poor/short line of sight makes braking up the human wave hard. 2. Human wave is best used as a tactic of "recon by force". 2nd line attacking in human wave with assault/SMG squads following, and "slipping throught" the holes in the defence line made by the human wave. 3. The Human wave is a psychological weapon against an human player. A player that has been "human waved" in Stalingrad will/and should reinforce that sector when the Ruskies assembles into a nice straight paradeline a cross the street. Have fun playing CMBB, and maybe we will meet in the streets of Stalingrad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ymir Posted September 2, 2002 Share Posted September 2, 2002 ops. what I ment is "2nd line squads". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laxx Posted September 3, 2002 Share Posted September 3, 2002 Potential Spoilers A couple of things to note, but I am sure it is common sense, really: - 40 - 50 metres would be a good idea hw start position. 100 or more would tire the troops - 3 to 1 advantage still rules. ie. a platoon hw against a german section. - before HW, make sure everybody is RESTED, not TIRING - overlapping HW is good. ie. 1 platoon provide suppressive fire (cover arcs) while another starts a HW. After the first is done, the suppressive platoon HWs. IMHO, HW is a special feature of Assault. Except that it is only the russkies who have it and they get a morale boost. cheers! laxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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