new to combat mission, and Would like a few qucick questions awnserd.

[zee]

Hello,

well ive been playing CbBO for a few days and downloaded alot of addons and mods and the game is awsome.

and ive been looking into CMBB and it looks 10x better.

but i do have some questions that id like anyone (or the game designers) to awnser for me.

1.) ok i love this game but why did you choose it to be turn base instead of real-time. ive always been a real time war game fan and i feel its alot more fun to play because you give quick commands and recieve quick responses from your troops. and also it gives the "all out battle" feel to the game when action is happening all around you at the same time to give it a war feel.

is it at all possible with the game engine to toggle turn base/ real time on or off for those who love real time/ and those who love turn base.

see i am starting to love CM the depth and realism in the game is awsome but the turn base part of it sorta make the game boring after awile and slow (no offense).

2) my second question is on infantry. you guys in CMBB are paying alot of attention to the AFV graphics and detail, what about infantry? in CMBO the infantry seem to be not realistic. and when they die they dont seem to have a realistic death hehe. will this bee changed in cmbb??

well hope you can awnser some of my questions thanks!

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by zee:

Hello,

well ive been playing CbBO for a few days and downloaded alot of addons and mods and the game is awsome.

and ive been looking into CMBB and it looks 10x better.

but i do have some questions that id like anyone (or the game designers) to awnser for me.

1.) ok i love this game but why did you choose it to be turn base instead of real-time. ive always been a real time war game fan and i feel its alot more fun to play because you give quick commands and recieve quick responses from your troops. and also it gives the "all out battle" feel to the game when action is happening all around you at the same time to give it a war feel.

is it at all possible with the game engine to toggle turn base/ real time on or off for those who love real time/ and those who love turn base.

see i am starting to love CM the depth and realism in the game is awsome but the turn base part of it sorta make the game boring after awile and slow (no offense).

2) my second question is on infantry. you guys in CMBB are paying alot of attention to the AFV graphics and detail, what about infantry? in CMBO the infantry seem to be not realistic. and when they die they dont seem to have a realistic death hehe. will this bee changed in cmbb??

well hope you can awnser some of my questions thanks!

armour penetration my friend

the "crunch" (the blue line) you see between turns is what seperates CMBO from its RTS brothers

Most real war game players used to play card board games like ASL and PanzerBlitz, and they/we want the peace and quiet of the TIME (during turns) to think about tactics, that does not include a Click fest like RTS games.

the fact is when they designed CMBO the computer hardware was not fast enough to compute (with accurate armour penetration algorythms) the damage from shots fired in real time.

ok?

-tom w

[ July 17, 2002, 08:59 PM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[Phoenix]

1.) ok i love this game but why did you choose it to be turn base instead of real-time.

Simple answer? Because that's what the game designers wanted. If you want more detailed answers as to why CMBO will NOT work as an RT game, you have several years worth of detailed answers that can be found in the search engine.

is it at all possible with the game engine to toggle turn base/ real time on or off for those who love real time/ and those who love turn base.

No. And there's no plan for it either.

and when they die they dont seem to have a realistic death hehe.

This is a war game, not a first person shooter. You should also realize that when units are "eliminated" it doesn't necessarily mean they are "dead". It means they are unable to fight.

[ July 17, 2002, 09:00 PM: Message edited by: Phoenix ]

[Pvt. Ryan]

Welcome to CM and the forum.

CM is not real time because you can't adequately control your forces in real time. The game would boil down to how fast you can move your mouse, i.e. a "click fest."

As far as infantry, you have to remember that they are abstracted. Three men represents a squad of 9 - 12 men or so. I am sure CMBB will do an even better job with infantry than CMBO does. The deaths are probably not going to change other than what the men say when they are hit. There will be no blood. Seach some of the archived posts for lengthy discussions on this.

[Bruno Weiss]

Oh boy, this is gonna be good. Wait a minute, lemme get my coffee and smokes...

[YankeeDog]

Originally posted by Bruno Weiss:

Oh boy, this is gonna be good. Wait a minute, lemme get my coffee and smokes...

Now, now. He's new. He asked his questions nicely, so he deserves nice answers.

Zee - You will likely NEVER see Combat Mission go RTS - the designers are pretty adamant about this and are very committed to the WEGO format. Those of us who hang out here at the forum are pretty committed to it, too. There's lots that's been written on this in the history of this forum, and I'm sure there will be more on this thread.

To each their own - there's plenty of other games out there in the genre that do RTS.

Cheers,

YD

[MGONZOM]

Welcome,

Your questions are good ones. Now that you found the game and are new it is time for you to continue to practice against AI. When you think you are ready to play against a human post for a battle. Then you will see why turn base is important.

BTW you should probaly start reading on WWII tactics, how a platoon or a COY moves a battlefield. Find some good books on infantry tatics. Then read about Armor tactics, find some good books on these. Now apply these on the battlefield against AI and see the difference in the game.

Then you probaly will be ready to go to a ladder and join. Then you can learn during those battles.

Then maybe you should try some scenario designs from the money you spent on the above books or time spent at the library. Make sure you find some good maps to keep your scenarios close to historical as possible. Or maybe you have a favorite war movie and you want recreate a battle there. If so check out a scenario Database and see if there is already a scenario based on the movie. IF so maybe try that one. See if you can make it better?

At the same time check the OOB in the ETO. Make sure you have historically correct units. Apply some of the names of the officers and soldiers that fought in those battles in your scenarios. Post that you are looking for some scenario designers in "scenario talk" and have other players test them. Get their feedback and tweak and test again.

If you have any problems and need tech support check out that part of the forum and help will be there for you.

If you have a favorite RTS program, or any other topic go to the General Forum and post there and I am sure others will join in on the topic,

Welcome to the forum, I have been playing Wargames since the early 70s and there has been no other game that represents the Wargaming community as well as BTS's CMBO.

Have Fun and if you have any questions just post them, we here at BFC all have our opions and we are not afraid to post them and it seems you will fit right in...

BTW are you looking for a PBEM opponent.

Michael "Gonzo" Gonzalez

[Agua]

Originally posted by zee:

2) my second question is on infantry. you guys in CMBB are paying alot of attention to the AFV graphics and detail, what about infantry? in CMBO the infantry seem to be not realistic. and when they die they dont seem to have a realistic death hehe. will this bee changed in cmbb??

well hope you can awnser some of my questions thanks!

Welcome to the forum! Okay, infantry modeling is abstracted in CM, as are visual terrain features such as forests, "rough", brush, etc. The graphical representation of the three soldiers isn't representing three soldiers. An individual tree doesn't represent an individual tree. What is going on is that each squad has an organic firepower rating that varies based upon the equipment that it is armed with. The firepower rating is also affected by such things as experience, leadership, distance to target, the cover that the target is in, a ton of other things. With terrain, units have incoming firepower reduced, dependent on the tyupe of terrain they are in. Terrain also affects movement and concealment. So, if a squad is located behind what graphically appears to be a tree in the middle of a forest, in actuality it is not an individual tree, but the squad is getting the benefit of the protection against the incoming fire of the forest. This varies based upon distance from the edge of the cover. So, I guess the point I'm getting to is that just as the graphical representation of a tree isn't a specific tree, the representation of the three soldiers isn't "three soldiers". As the individual soldiers are killed or incpacitated, the number of graphically displayed soldiers in each squad is reduced. Something else you'll notice that is part of this same abstraction is close combat. It will appear that the squad is chucking grenades at another squad, or a halftrack, or what have you, but in actuality the grenades you see flying through the air, and even providing a report, are not individual grenades, but it is simply the graphical representation of a squad chucking grenades, prying limbs into treads, what have you.

Now, simply because it is abstracted, however, doesn't mean that it isn't detailed. The squads carry set amounts of ammo (though they never actually run out because they will share the last remaining clips amongst themselves), and the loss of individual weapons through attrition is accounted for. Likewise, when the operator of the heavier arms of a squad is incapacitated, generally (based upon experience level, state of suppression, and some other things), the remaining members will scavange those heavier weapons so as to maximize the firepower of the squad. So, while there isn't the graphical representation of the individual squad members in the game, the details of the individuals' contribution to the squad is tracked.

I realize this post rambled quite a bit here, but I hope it gives you a feel of what is going on with the game. It is, in my, and probably most members of this forum, the most detailed and realistic wargame ever made. You'll learn an awful lot about combined arms tactics and history with the game and this forum. Good luck and here's to many years of CM satisfaction for you!

[ July 17, 2002, 11:20 PM: Message edited by: Agua ]

[Bruno Weiss]

I weren't doin nuffin, harnest. I were just a waiting on the fun to start. Ahh, the boys is going soft on us anyways. In the ole days there'd aready be pride spilt on tha floor...

Now looky here new feller. I were arso into the real time stuff afore discovering CM. Not that I liked it on account of it always struck me as an AI playing an AI, with my input thrown in as an after thought and all dependent upon how fast I could click the mouse. And it was the latest fad from the code pokers at the big companies. Ofcourse once one of em makes it big on something the rest of em all follow along like a dog sled team. Then thank goodness, Battlefront, Bigtime, whichever (you'll see there has been an effort recently to readjust the culture here to call them by a different name than we used to, leaving me purely confused as to who the devil they really are). Stay with me here, back to the story.

So now turn based CM allows for human thought processes see, without interference or supercession from the AI. Probably more importantly, it is more geared to human to human interaction than human to AI interaction. Which, is where the beauty of turn based shines. Two completely different things there playing an AI, and playing another snarling competitor bent on giving ya a good spanking. Real time just don't really do it for that type of interface.

Well anyhow, that's me take on it. Ya ain't gotta agree, but the RT issue versus TB has come an gone a long time ago. Ever one pretty much has moved onto more important issues like whether or not Finnland constitutes a major nation, or why them Spainards ain't in CMBB, or somefink. See ya'll, I were nice.

[Michael Emrys]

Bruno, you're a prince among men (we won't go into what you are among women ).

Michael

[Tarquelne]

it gives the "all out battle" feel to the game when action is happening all around you at the same time to give it a war feel.

Get involved in a CM game enough and you'll get that feeling. At least during the movie. And if you're intensely involved you won't loose the feeling as you plot your next turn.

A simple answer to "Why not RT?" is that the game would become highly unrealistic. Why's that, since the actual war was in Real Time? It's because real life has lots of real people. Each side in CM has no more than 1 real person. One person simply can't control each squad in an infantry batallion in real time, for example, and have the batallion fight at all realistically. And realism is one of CM's primary goals.

In games where realism isn't that important RT can work at any scale. In small CM games RT could work. But many CM scenarios/battles are far, far too big.

sorta make the game boring after awile and slow (no offense).

If it gets boring try increasing the challenge (several ways to do this vrs. the AI), start playing humans (of course, anything but TCP/IP play is even slower), or go do something else for awhile. Currently I'm playing IL-2, Battlezone 2, and Hidden&Dangerous Deluxe when I want more action. Or Magic & Mayhem. Or FF... got games coming out my ears recently.... anyway: It's easy to get the impression here that CM players are _required_ to play CM all the time, but it isn't true. (This should be in the FAQ, IMO.)

It was mentioned that you "should" go read up on tactics, etc. Certainly a good idea if you want to play competatively. However, no matter who you play doing so will probably make you appreciate the game more, which would mean that slow wouldn't seem boring. CM's one of the few games where a great deal of knowledge about what the game is supposed to be based on actually makes it more fun.

[Mud]

For a scenario with interesting pacing, hm, try "Sherbrooke Fusiliers" as the allies. It's on the CD. Trying to hold on under a massed Panzer assault, and with contact coming extremely early in the game, isn't particularly relaxing.

"Aachen", by virtue of its short game length, small size, and urban neighborhoods, is another on the CD that has quick pacing. "Le Lorey-A Hard Stand" and "Chambois", if they're the ones I'm thinking of, are better for high-tension armor-armor conflict.

Definitely, read tactics and history. It'll help one's play to dispel any strange notions that one may have about, say, any alleged massive superiority of German tanks/troops versus Allies, or the invulnerability of tanks as they run over infantry, or whatever bad habits one may have picked up from less-realistic games, such as ones that give tanks "health bars" which get depleted through ordinary rifle fire.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Tarqulene:

A simple answer to "Why not RT?" is that the game would become highly unrealistic. Why's that, since the actual war was in Real Time? It's because real life has lots of real people. Each side in CM has no more than 1 real person. One person simply can't control each squad in an infantry batallion in real time, for example, and have the batallion fight at all realistically. And realism is one of CM's primary goals.

That's it in a nutshell.

This quote should make it into the FAQ. Hubba-hubba.

Michael

[zee]

well if you say going RT will cut the realism.. what about the new game comming out from 1c maddux

"WWII:Real time strategy" makers of IL-2 these guys are bent on makeing everything as realistic as possible. and its RT but of course it isent comming out till a year.

im not trying to put down CM i probably will buy CMBB.

[Sir Uber General]

Hi Zee, welcome to the real world

If you think CMBO is slow and boring, try playing a TCP/IP game of say about 1500pts, then set the timer to 3 minutes. I call it shotgun CMBO and it is about as close to an RTS clickfest as it comes. The results of such hurried planning and movement often lead to crappy orders being handed to your troops and it makes the battle very entertaining Especially vs a human!

[Barrold]

If I am not mistaken, the scale of the Oleg RTS game is much smaller than what is going to be accomplished in CM:BB.

It will be interesting to see what they create ultimately, but IIRC, the release date is late 2003, it is barely more than a twinkle in Oleg's eye right now.

The descent to real time would neuter the realism of the system and take away the special ability to view the turn movie numerous times at several angles to see all the details you would miss if the player had to concentrate on clicking his units constantly. In CM:BB there awaits a number of really cool things that may go un-noticed if a careful scan of the move and combat is not taken. People will be discovering nifty things for a long period in this game system and that is part of what makes CM a very special game for the people who play it.

BDH

[zee]

yeah, ive been playing some more CMBO and i am starting to like turn base .. i can plan my orders better and it works out great.

now i just cant wait til CMBB

and as for WWII:RTS by 1c maddux. ya late 2003 is suspected release date.

Oldeg is and his team are mostly working on the il-2 sequel Forgotten battles.

[Barrold]

Soon...very soon.

The wait will be worth it. Even though I am going back to school full-time, tuition is due, and I am only working part-time, if I have to sell plasma to order the game, well...

Stick me and give me some orange juice because Christmas is too long to wait.

I just hope that Unix operating system isn't too hard so I'll have time to play.

BDH

[Monty's Double]

Three minutes Sir Uber General? Any more than 1 minute per 1000pts is for women and Manchester United fans. If you actually have time to give everyone orders you aren't doing it right.

[Soddball]

My favourite is 1,500pt QB, 2 minute timer. That's fast and furious

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Monty's Double:

Three minutes Sir Uber General? Any more than 1 minute per 1000pts is for women and Manchester United fans. If you actually have time to give everyone orders you aren't doing it right.

I agree with that.

1 minute per 1000 pts

1500 pts at 2 minutes is a real thrill for sure!

I Like ShotGun CMBO that is the best way to play TCP/IP against a human.

that makes it ALOT like and RTS click fest if that is what you enjoy to get an adrenalin rush !

-tom w

[Firefly]

Zee, if you prefer real time, you should check out the Airborne Assault demo from this site. Despite what a lot of people are saying, real time does not = click-fest. AA is different scale to CMBO and you only have to to give orders to HQ units (although you can give orders to individual units if you wish) and on the slowest setting time is not an issue. AA is not 3D and uses the traditional map and counter style of board wargames.

That said, however, the scale of CM means that issuing orders in real time in a battle with more than a few troops would become a chore at best and would make using good tactics difficult at worst, the average CM battle last 30 minutes of real time as opposed to a day or even more in AA.

[ July 18, 2002, 08:44 AM: Message edited by: Firefly ]

[Prinz Eugen]

Originally posted by YankeeDog:

Zee - You will likely NEVER see Combat Mission go RTS - the designers are pretty adamant about this and are very committed to the WEGO format. Those of us who hang out here at the forum are pretty committed to it, too.

Amen to that !

[Monty's Double]

The other great thing about the WeGo system is being able to replay the action and find out what happened on any part of the battlefield. I gave up playing the Close Combat series because I found that it was fruitless to try and co-ordinate attacks in different areas. You always end up bunching your forces together on attack because it's the only way you can see what's happening. The turn based system in CMBO allows you to learn from your mistakes by replaying over again to try and work our where you went wrong (or right for that matter), and construct far more complex and satisfying plans. And if you want something more immediate and less reflective, get online and squeeze that timer until the pips squeak...

[zee]

great replys guys yeah i agree with most of what your saying now that im playing more and more.

ill have to try multiplayer when CMBB comes out i still suck badly at the game and need practice.

i also use to play the CC series and it was really cool when it first came out but after awile it got outdated and boring. ive played sudden strike as well that game dosent really have realistic depth at all.

GI Combat coming out in a month looks promising. im probably going to buy that and CMBB

[ July 18, 2002, 02:01 PM: Message edited by: zee ]