Der Manstein Kommt! (no spoiler)

[Sgt Joch]

I have always been interested in the Stalingrad campaign, which was the turning point on the Eastern front as well as of the war. In the Stalingrad operation, the campaign which fascinated me the most was Manstein's offensive to relieve Stalingrad.... what if he had succeeded?

By December 1942, time was rapidly slipping away for the Third Reich.

Rommel was in full retreat, the allies had landed in North Africa. The battle of the Atlantic was reaching a fever pitch. The strategic bombing campaign was increasing in intensity.

In Stalingrad, a quarter of a milllion men were trapped, trying to survive on starvation rations. The Luftwaffe, despite Goering's boast, was unable to deliver even the bare minimum of supplies. Hitler forbade any breakout attempt by the Sixth Army. Any relief would have to come from outside.

In later years, military historians would argue that Manstein's effort was doomed from the start, hamstrung by indequate resources and Hitler's orders and stopped cold by superior Soviet forces and "General Winter". They would state that no one could save the divisions trapped in Stalingrad and that World War II was already won by the Allies. But all that lay in the future.

In December 1942, there was still hope. The german army still had an aura of invicibility that gave Soviet generals nightmares in the middle of the night. Manstein had a small but balanced force, veteran panzer troops and mobile infantry, highly motivated to reach Stalingrad, not for the greater glory of the Third Reich, but to save their trapped comrades. Trucks laden with supplies were ready to roll into the city has soon as the road was opened.

If the siege was lifted, perhaps the encircling Red forces could be defeated piecemeal and perhaps a separate peace could be signed with the Soviets before the war turned into a total disaster for Germany...perhaps..

And now is the time to see if an amateur armchair military historian, with no real life military experience whatsoever, can accomplish what one of the greatest general of WWII could not.

"Der Manstein Kommt!"... the 23rd Panzer division WILL break through to Stalingrad or die trying.

And that is why I love this game.

[Aragorn2002]

It is by far one of the most fascinating and dramatic episodes of the entire war in the east. Personally I think Wintergewitter only had a fair chance on succes when the 16th Motorized Division and possibly several units of the IIIrd Pz Korps had been taken part (in an early stage) in the operation, combined with a determined execution of Donnerschlag. If only Paulus had the courage to defy Hitlers stand-or-die orders, much would have been possible. The men and officiers of the German 6th Army were the tip of the spear of the Wehrmacht and proved in the bitter fighting, even after all hope was gone, that they could accomplish incredible things. The best book on the subject is of course "Bis Stalingrad 48 KM..." by Horst Scheibert. A good addition to that book is of course "Lost Victories" by Manstein. Finally Douglas E. Nash' superb book "Hells Gate', about the battle of Cherkassy, gives a good impression of what might have been, if Donnerschlag had taken place.

[Schoerner]

I don't know what the Stalingrad-Pack has to do with your strategic assumptions.

Therefore i feel free, to post my opininion, too.

I strongly have to disagree: if the 6th army would have broken out, the five russian armys bound over 2 months around Stalingrad, would have cut off the whole Heeresgruppe Süd.

With the in history unique heroic fight of the 6. Armee, only comparable with the Battle of the Thermophyles, the 1.000.000 men of HGr.Süd got the time to retreat, to reorganize and establish a frontier that made it possible to bring most of the soldiers alive home, slow down the bolshevistic hordes and therefore to protect Europe from becoming conquered completely by Communism.

This is the real merit of the 6.Armee and future times will judge the fight of the 6. Armee more just and will give the fallen soldiers the honor and respect they deserve.

[ November 21, 2002, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: Schoerner ]

[Lumbergh]

Originally posted by Schoerner:

[QB]...slow down the bolshevistic hordes and therefore to protect Europe from becoming conquered completely by Communism.

[QB]

Christ man you sound like you watched a few too many Nazi propaganda films.

I would think that playing CMBB would prove educational as to how desperate and furious fighting in the east proved until the end. That the Red Army was not some massive, faceless mob, but an army that adapted throughout the war to surpass the Germans in tactical, operational, and especially strategic skill.

One would think that. Of course, one would also think that people would realize that in a conflict as vicious as this, there was no clear-cut "good guys" and "bad guys".

I for one am happy that the Red Army defeated Nazi Germany. True, communist rule of Eastern Europe was bad...but, given the choice, i'll take that over death camps for everybody.

[Schoerner]

Originally posted by Lumbergh:

True, communist rule of Eastern Europe was bad...but, given the choice, i'll take that over death camps for everybody.

Interesting that your answer implies, that Bolshevism had no death-camps.

Do 60 million murdered people not count?

For everybody?

Could it be you are confusing the sides?

Strange.

[bboyle]

Originally posted by Schoerner:

QUOTE]Interesting that your answer implies, that Bolshevism had no death-camps.

Do 60 million murdered people not count?

For everybody?

Could it be you are confusing the sides?

Strange.[/QB]

I'd be interested to know the sourcing for 60 million killed by 'Bolshevism' (the use of that term in such a general way does not make alot of sense historically, btw, but I digress). I have seen some pretty sober analysis that go anywhere up to about half that for Stalin's misdeeds but I'd be curious to know if your number is just a throwaway or if there's some fact to support it.

[Schoerner]

Das Schwarzbuch des Kommunismus (The Blackbook of Communism?), Stephane Courtois.

Very interesting and also demasking the selective perception of mass-media and history-books.

Yes, the great western Allies supported and helped a system to survive, that had murdered already under Lenin ~14 million people.

[ November 21, 2002, 04:54 PM: Message edited by: Schoerner ]

[Hensworth]

You wouldn't have an 88 tattooed in your neck, by any chance ?

Just wondering

[Schoerner]

Sgt_Kelly:

No, not wondering. Just distractions - like always in mass-media, too.

[McAuliffe]

Reading Herr Schoerner's posts, I am wondering CDV had it right after all.

[Panzer Leader]

Regardless of the political affilitations of those posting, this brings up a question I (and probably every historian of WW2) has wondered:

Could Manstein have made it?

Could Paulus have broken through to the south (while withdrawing his troops, NOT in addition to maintaining the pocket - we all know that was impossible)?

Did Hitler Knowingly sacrifice 6th Army in order to save 4th Army (and AG Sud)?

It seems pretty obvious in hindsight that Dec 21(IIRC - when 6th Panzer was withdrwawn), the last real chance for 6th Army evaporated, but did the people in charge REALLY see it that way? I mean, they'd never been defeated. COuld they have still, even while soldiers were dropping from hunger and fatigue, think they could 'pull through?'

I am becoming convinced that as soon as Uranus began, Hitler recognized 6th Army was doomed and from then on used it as a sponge to soak up Soviet Armies. (Of course, it was risky if he did know that, considering he sent very capable troops to help Manstein and become threatened themselves with encirclement.)

Interesting theories all around!

[Keke]

Originally posted by Schoerner:

Das Schwarzbuch des Kommunismus (The Blackbook of Communism?), Stephane Courtois.

Very interesting and also demasking the selective perception of mass-media and history-books.

Hear, hear!

The book is written by 6 historians, 4 of them French (ex-)communists.

I also recommend (even more) books written by Aleksandr Solzenitsyn, who btw, was a commander (captain) of a artillery battery in the Red Army by the time of his arrest spring 1945. He had critizised Stalin in a personal correspondence, so off to the Gulag he was sent...

[ November 21, 2002, 06:20 PM: Message edited by: Keke ]

[Keke]

Originally posted by Panzer Leader:

I am becoming convinced that as soon as Uranus began, Hitler recognized 6th Army was doomed and from then on used it as a sponge to soak up Soviet Armies. (Of course, it was risky if he did know that, considering he sent very capable troops to help Manstein and become threatened themselves with encirclement.)

I am becoming more convinced that while Hitler dreamed he could save the 6th Army with newly formed SS-Corps, Manstein had realized that 6th Army should tie as much Soviet formations as possible to allow orderly retreat for German troops at Caucasus, which would save AGS. Wintergewitter was just a display by Manstein to prove that he (supposedly) tried to do everything to save the 6th Army.

Edit: Corrected some badd Enklish.

[ November 21, 2002, 07:24 PM: Message edited by: Keke ]

[Sgt Joch]

I did not start this thread to have it degenerate into a flame war. Nazi Germany and Stalin's Soviet Union were both ruthless totalitarian dictatorships and either Joseph Stalin or Adolf Hitler make Saddam Hussein look like a third rate amateur. Trying to argue about which is "more" evil ia a pointless exercise. Although to paraphrase Dr. Evil, I would say Joe was the margarine of evil and Adolf was the real thing.

I started this post because I was very impressed by the "Der Manstein Kommt!" operation. The map is very beautifully done with a lot of attention to details and it really gives you a sense of being there, which is something CMBB does very well.

Schoerner, I disagree completely with your analysis. Hitler's stand fast order at Stalingrad was one of his most idiotic orders and doomed the Sixth Army to certain destruction, without apreciably slowing down the Russian offensive. The line about the German "sacrifice" was spun by Goebbel's propaganda ministry to justify Hitler's mistake.

Except maybe for the germans in 1941-42, stand fast orders always led to disasters. Stalin's stand fast orders led to the disasters at Minsk, Smolensk, Kiev and Vyazma in 1941. Hitler's led to Stalingrad, Cherkassy, Korsun, the destruction of army group centre in june 1944 and countless others.

Mobile defence was the key to success, Manstein showed that in february-march 1943 when with much depleted forces, he was able to knock back the Soviets and retake Kharkov. If the Sixth Army was there, instead of starving at Stalingrad, the front would have been stabilised sooner and farther east and the Germans would have stronger forces.

Panzer Leader, I think Hitler based a lot of his decisions on his experience during the winter of 1941-42 when even though many german units were cut off, they were able to get enough supplies over land or through airlifts to survive until the spring when a coherent front line was reestablished. Hitler probably thought something similar could be done at Stalingrad.

[ November 21, 2002, 06:17 PM: Message edited by: JC_Hare ]

[Yggdrasill]

I have to agree with JC.

Germany could not afford to lose 6th Army. Those 250,000 veteran soldiers were, simply put, irreplaceable.

If 6th Army had broken out as part of an organized retreat, the Soviets would have had a MUCH harder time of it.

Of course, the Germans should never have allowed themselves to be surrounded at Stalingrad in the first place, but then Hitler was an idiot when it came to strategy. The stand-and-die/no retreat standing order sealed the death of many German soldiers to little or no avail.

[Schoerner]

Originally posted by JC_Hare:

[QB]I did not start this thread to have it degenerate into a flame war.

Do you think it is fair, to plot your opinion about strategic theories, but as soon as someone has a different opinion, to say that you opened the thread just because of talking about the Stalingrad-Pack?

BTW: i don't see a flame-war.

I see interesting opinions here, but maybe because not all agree with your trivial look at this topic, you don't like it, if the topic you brought up, is discussed further?

Hitler's stand fast order at Stalingrad was one of his most idiotic orders

It seems this is all very trivial and clear for you.

OK, then it can't be hard for you to answer following question:

What do you think, would have happened, if there hadn't been the 6.Armee in Stalingrad and if 6.Armee would have instead gone further south?

What forces would have prevented the five russian armies to cutoff the complete HGr.Süd?

and doomed the Sixth Army to certain destruction, without apreciably slowing down the Russian offensive.

Well to soak up 5 armies for 2 months and to give HGr. Süd the possibility to build up a front, is no slowing down?

If you have facts about german forces that would had been strong enough to hold these armies back from closing the pocket for complete HGr. Süd if 6.Armee would have been in the south, then please tell me.

It could be, that turning torwards Stalingrad was a mistake. Judged from a point of view, knowing how the battle ended.

But when the decisions were made, nobody could look into the future.

And what if Stalingrad would have been taken?

Even 60 years later, this isn't clear!

And you call this decision stupid, although 60 years later, the military-historicans can't judge it clearly?

Before calling a historic decision stupid (i even disagree that this is allowed), you should always take the circumstances and informations into account, the people during their time had at their hands - instead of trivially judging with a controversal "knowledge" 60 years later.

BTW: not during Stalin Bolshevism turned into a Terrorregime. Even the, from many left artists today still admired Lenin already had murdered ~14 million people - MUCH MUCH more than Hitler murdered - and during peace, not war.

Yes Lenin murdered by far more than 2 times more people, than jews were killed by Nationalsozialism.

But these victims don't count, i know.

Your way of argueing, is well known and widely, all the time and everywhere practiced: as long as it's possible to declare Hitler as unique evil, every murdered person is celebrated and he is uncomparable evil.

But as soon as someone stands up and says, that the still tolerated Communism has killed 10 times more people, first it is forbidden to "compare" (by the same people who are all the time talking about numbers of victims) and then the systems are equated and the difference of 50 million murdered people is neglected.

By the same people which usually say "Who saves only one life, saves the world."

Phrases used for political reasons, only. Not more.

[ November 21, 2002, 07:22 PM: Message edited by: Schoerner ]

[Franko]

Politics Shmolitics -- I just hope the guy likes my Operation.

Franko.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Franko:

Politics Shmolitics -- I just hope the guy likes my Operation.

Franko.

Grog's Guide to the Internet tells us that you spelled Schmolitics incorrectly.

Panzer Leader - have you read Matthew Cooper's THE GERMAN ARMY yet? He talks about the interactions between Hitler and his generals and has some interesting things to say about 6th Army. Kershaw's HITLER: NEMESIS addresses the matter you raise even more directly than that, IIRC.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by JC_Hare:

Panzer Leader, I think Hitler based a lot of his decisions on his experience during the winter of 1941-42 when even though many german units were cut off, they were able to get enough supplies over land or through airlifts to survive until the spring when a coherent front line was reestablished. Hitler probably thought something similar could be done at Stalingrad.

Hermann Goering guaranteed, this, actually; it would appear Hitler placed a lot of faith in that guarantee.

[Yggdrasill]

Originally posted by Schoerner:

What do you think, would have happened, if there hadn't been the 6.Armee in Stalingrad and if 6.Armee would have instead gone further south?

What forces would have prevented the five russian armies to cutoff the complete HGr.Süd?

and doomed the Sixth Army to certain destruction, without apreciably slowing down the Russian offensive. Well to soak up 5 armies for 2 months and to give HGr. Süd the possibility to build up a front, is no slowing down?

If you have facts about german forces that would had been strong enough to hold these armies back from closing the pocket for complete HGr. Süd if 6.Armee would have been in the south, then please tell me.

It could be, that turning torwards Stalingrad was a mistake. Judged from a point of view, knowing how the battle ended.

But when the decisions were made, nobody could look into the future.

And what if Stalingrad would have been taken?

The southern summer offensive of 42 caught STAVKA by surprise. Stalin had been anticipating a second drive on Moscow and had deployed soviet forces accordingly. Initial German drives to Rostov and the Caucasas succeeded.

The Battle for Stalingrad built up incidentally, and the Germans gradually occupied 80% of the city. The Soviets saw morale value in holding the city that bore Stalin's name. Hitler, in his unwisdom, bought into that propaganda, and fixated on taking the city. Even without the ultimate debacle, it was a costly urban battle with little to gain.

In answer to your question, Schoerner, the Germans never should have gotten into the Stalingrad battle in the first place. They could have bypassed and cut off the city. Instead they chose to invest more and more soldiers, in bloody urban fighting, and progressively weakening their flanks. Or, they could have screened the city, and driven on towards the oil fields at Baku, which were their true objective in any case.

What Von Manstein showed in 1943 was the effectiveness of a mobile defense. If the Soviets had threatened to cut off Army Group South, a mobile defense could have pulled back and met that threat. If the 6th army hadn't been occupying the city, it could have maintained a wider front along the Volga. If 6th had withdrawn after the beginning of Operation Uranus, as common sense would dictate, they would have survived to fight another day.

But Hitler WAS an idiot. He chose to invest in Stalingrad. When things went poorly he ordered the soldiers not to retreat, and then, not to surrender. Von Paulus was too much of a coward to defy Hitler until it was too late to save his army.

I don't think that this is hindsight. Hitler's generals at the time urged him to pull the 6th army back. Your notion of "soaking up" 5 armies is ridiculous. True, the Soviets lost close to a half a million troops, to the Germans' 250,000, but the Soviets could afford these losses, as history shows, while the Germans could not.

[Foxbat]

Originally posted by Schoerner:

With the in history unique heroic fight of the 6. Armee, only comparable with the Battle of the Thermophyles, the 1.000.000 men of HGr.Süd got the time to retreat, to reorganize and establish a frontier that made it possible to bring most of the soldiers alive home, slow down the bolshevistic hordes and therefore to protect Europe from becoming conquered completely by Communism.

And we all know that this happened at the same time that Rommel captured the pyramids, brining them back into the Aryian fold and temporarily securing a force field around the Fuhrer's home in Brechtesgaden. Just in time to foil the plot by english witches to assasinate him, the world tetered on the brink of desctruction but fortunatly totalitarian lunacy prevailed.

Either that or the men of the 6th army died because a petty dictator wanted to make a point at their cost

[Zarquon]

Originally posted by Schoerner:

Das Schwarzbuch des Kommunismus (The Blackbook of Communism?), Stephane Courtois.

Very interesting and also demasking the selective perception of mass-media and history-books.

Yes, the great western Allies supported and helped a system to survive, that had murdered already under Lenin ~14 million people.

Please read some of Schoerner's earlier posts and make up your own mind about whether this is thinly veiled hate propaganda or a discussion based on accepted historical facts.

Prepare to be told that accepted facts are those which are accepted by the poster.

Prepare to install the Wassen-FF patch that restores the full graphical glory of the Schutzstaffel.

Engage in flame wars.

*Expect* the Spanish Inquisition.

Zarquon (tired of this)

[Gaylord Focker]

From what i understand, Stalingrad was a virtual pissing contest between Stalin and Hitler, niether would back down if the situation there turned sour i believe.

Correct me if i'm wrong, i have'nt started my Stalingrad book by A.Beevor yet.

[bboyle]

Originally posted by Schoerner:

Das Schwarzbuch des Kommunismus (The Blackbook of Communism?), Stephane Courtois.

Very interesting and also demasking the selective perception of mass-media and history-books.

Yes, the great western Allies supported and helped a system to survive, that had murdered already under Lenin ~14 million people.

LOL...really Shoerner, as if the Western Allies had much of a choice under the circumstances. I'll check out the book tho I suspect I will have a more sceptical take on the numbers than you...and before you whip out the obscurant myth of 'selective mass media' you should learn more about who you are talking to before you decide where their point of view originates.

[Foxbat]

Originally posted by Gaylord Focker:

From what i understand, Stalingrad was a virtual pissing contest between Stalin and Hitler, niether would back down if the situation there turned sour i believe.

Correct me if i'm wrong, i have'nt started my Stalingrad book by A.Beevor yet.

It was a "pissing contest" in a way, but it made sense for the Red Army. The Red Army needed to actively engage the enemy at short ranges and fix him in place in order to hurt him.

And once the 6th was entrenched in the city it was vital for the russians to keep them engaged at all costs while they were building up to the encirclement.