Variable endings

[Treeburst155]

So you're attacking, and you're pressed for time. Simply leave that VL behind your lines unoccupied until the last turn or two. At that time, occupy the VL and enjoy your extra turns.

EDIT: The above is irrelevant. Testing shows that, contrary to the manual, ALL variable turn games will go at least one turn longer than the stated turns regardless of changes in flag ownership. If you get a variable ending scenario that ends on the specified turn, I'd love to hear about it.

Treeburst155 out.

[ December 13, 2002, 07:20 AM: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

[Panzer Leader]

I recently played a PBEM where I was defending and I beat my opponent so mercillesly that like a cur he retreated off the back edge of a map. The game went over 3-4 turns anyway I believe. The turns ALWAYS go over, and it seems like it's ALWAYS at least 5, often 9 turns.

I can't stand it.

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Panzer Leader:

I recently played a PBEM where I was defending and I beat my opponent so mercillesly that like a cur he retreated off the back edge of a map. The game went over 3-4 turns anyway I believe. The turns ALWAYS go over, and it seems like it's ALWAYS at least 5, often 9 turns.

I can't stand it.

I just played one where there were no extra turns. It was a PBEM and I won, there were only three flags and I held two and my opponent one, the central flag was mine, and there was no way he would be getting it and the AI just said FINE!

Its over, and we did not get even one extra turn.

-tom w

[Treeburst155]

The turns will only go over if the status of a flag is changed near the end (not sure how near). What I'm wondering is, if repeated changes of status, in the overtime period, will trigger further extensions.

What I know right now is that the game can be extended at will, and with no risk, at least once, by any player who has a flag behind his lines.

Treeburst155 out.

[Panzer Leader]

Originally posted by Treeburst155:

The turns will only go over if the status of a flag is changed near the end (not sure how near). What I'm wondering is, if repeated changes of status, in the overtime period, will trigger further extensions.

What I know right now is that the game can be extended at will, and with no risk, at least once, by any player who has a flag behind his lines.

Treeburst155 out.

Hmm, maybe that was it. I might've moved my Nashorn to try and get at least one more kill.

For my current game, my opponent (the bastige) has a gun-damaged SU76 that is tearing across my back lines while extending turns so his fleet of T34s can cross my trench-line. He is more gamey than I thought!

[Treeburst155]

So you're saying, Panzer Leader, that your opponent is occupying and leaving VLs with a gun damaged vehicle just to extend the game? If so, that's what I'm talking about. Is he getting away with it multiple times?

Treeburst155 out.

[Snarker]

Originally posted by Treeburst155:

The turns will only go over if the status of a flag is changed near the end (not sure how near).

Hehehe! Buy the strategy guide.

[Treeburst155]

Tom,

By leaving one of your VLs near the end you could have gone into overtime if you wanted.

Treeburst155 out.

[Panzer Leader]

Well, we're only on turn 30+2, and now his T-34s have made it through my trenches and are "cannister-shotting" at will, so who knows. I bet if that SU76 hadn't sped back there the game would've ended at 30 though. What is it goodale says? Arrggg :mad: :mad:

[Treeburst155]

Originally posted by Snarker:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Treeburst155:

The turns will only go over if the status of a flag is changed near the end (not sure how near).

Hehehe! Buy the strategy guide. </font>

[CombinedArms]

TB,

Please note that I've just written a post on the ROW III thread advocating that our tourney saved games in ROW III be fixed length. I hadn't yet read your posts on this thread when I said that but it looks like we might in fact be of the same mind. I yet hadn't figured out this trick, however!

I have frequently seen variable games go six extra turns. Didn't realize they could go as many as nine! In my view, that's too much variation in game length for a tourney.

-------

[edit]

Just checked the ROW III thread and realized it was my post there that prompted this thread. That TB155, always on top of things!

[ December 11, 2002, 09:22 PM: Message edited by: CombinedArms ]

[Treeburst155]

Combined Arms,

Your post to the ROW thread is what got me thinking about all this. I haven't played with how long the variable ending game can be dragged out, but I KNOW the variable ending is triggered REAL early. I would have guessed flag changes in the last two or three turns, but it's at least six turns.

Treeburst155 out.

[Eden Smallwood]

Originally posted by Treeburst155:

What I'm wondering is, if repeated changes of status, in the overtime period, will trigger further extensions.

It should, if it's disputed by the enemy- that implies that the battle really is continuing. I've lobbied for that before; ISTR it is *partially* implemented..???

What I know right now is that the game can be extended at will, and with no risk, at least once, by any player who has a flag behind his lines.

And I've also lobbied that a flag behind one's lines should stay owned, regardless of whether one's troops remain there, which would have fixed that problem in the first place. But I was cruelly shot down by the vicious meanie *Emrys*, and... oops, did I say that? I better erase that; oh no! It's too late! I've already hit the 'Add Reply' button! Auuugh...

Eden

[GriffinCheng+]

OT: TB, care to have a QB PBEM?

[Treeburst155]

The manual says on page 42 that a variable ending battle can go up to 10 extra turns or 25% of the original battle length, whichever is less.

What it doesn't say, is how early a flag change can trigger the variable ending. My testing so far shows a flag change at 20 TURNS before the end causes the overtime period. I'm beginning to suspect my test is flawed.

Griffin,

I have 7 PBEMs I'm neglecting right now over this variable ending thing. You don't want to play me because my turnaround time is rather sucky right now, tournaments and all. I'll hunt you down after the holidays if you want.

Treeburst155 out.

[OGSF]

Originally posted by Panzer Leader:

Well, we're only on turn 30+2, and now his T-34s have made it through my trenches and are "cannister-shotting" at will, so who knows. I bet if that SU76 hadn't sped back there the game would've ended at 30 though. What is it goodale says? Arrggg :mad: :mad:

Wha gamey bastarrrd counts tha turrns anyhoo? Af'n ye're sae guid laddie, ye shoulda killed tha SU76 - boot ye nae guid enuff are ye? Eh? Ye didnae menshun tha ye bought tha biggest bleedin' Tiger ye could find an' plonk tha stankin' thing on a hill tae cover tha whole valley approach. Ah go' tha extra turrrns cos Ah blew tha poxy thang oop! Ye grid mod usin' mongrel!

Ha!

[Panzer Leader]

Doh! He found me. Jeez, try to get away for a few minutes to gripe and OGSF finds me and starts back up with the nag NAG NAGGING! You'd think I married him.

[Treeburst155]

I have yet to get my test scenario NOT to go into the overtime period. A bug? Even with 30 turns executed without a flag status change, I'm getting the variable ending. It's a tough test clicking through all those turns, so I give up. As far as I'm concerned, a variable ending scenario will ALWAYS yield a variable ending. If the scenario is "40+" turns I'll plan on at least 41 turns, possibly up to 50 turns regardless of what happens with the flags at any point in the game.

This means my gamey use of variable endings isn't really an exploitation of the feature at all. The ending WILL be variable anyway.

Treeburst155 out.

[ December 11, 2002, 11:09 PM: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

[Panzer Leader]

Originally posted by Treeburst155:

I have yet to get my test scenario NOT to go into the overtime period. A bug? Even with 30 turns executed without a flag status change, I'm getting the variable ending. It's a tough test clicking through all those turns, so I give up. As far as I'm concerned, a variable ending scenario will ALWAYS yield a variable ending. If the scenario is "40+" turns I'll plan on at least 41 turns, possibly up to 50 turns.

Treeburst155 out.

Think of it this way, TB, if you use VTE, one side or the other WILL BE totally annihilated. I've played about 10 PBEMs (with VTE) and in every one of them whoever was losing by turn 30, was CRUSHED by turn 35-40.

I't just the way it is and I can't stand it. I'd also like to note that I was onboard for the whole VTE thing when it was introduces, but now... I'm not so sure. Flag rushes might be reduced (or maybe they're more important now?) but it introduces a whole new set of factors.

[Treeburst155]

If you assume a variable ending will ALWAYS take place in scenarios designed with the feature (the manual claims different, but I've yet to see it NOT happen), then flag rushes have been made more difficult to time. This, as I understand it, is the purpose of VTE. I see nothing to hate about this feature.

My testing just contradicts the manual. If I'm right, then the attacker in a VTE scenario ALWAYS has more turns than are specified to accomplish his mission. This is important to know IMO, for both players. In fact, it's a major revelation since the manual says different.

EDIT: Scenario designers should keep this in mind when deciding on game length too. "30+" is likely to yield 35 turns or more. If a designer wants 30 turns +/-5, he needs to set the turns to 25 or so.

Treeburst155 out.

[ December 11, 2002, 11:34 PM: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

[russellmz]

Originally posted by Treeburst155:

EDIT: Wow! The variable ending kicks in with flag status changes AT LEAST SIX turns before the scenario end turn. That's why it is so common to go into overtime. Any flag changes in virtually the last quarter of a typical game will trigger it!!

Treeburst155 out.

i am afraid you will have to show 10,000 trials before i believe you

[WWB]

Just did a few tests that bear out the fact that some varation up always happens.

EDIT: Scenario designers should keep this in mind when deciding on game length too. "30+" is likely to yield 35 turns or more. If a designer wants 30 turns +/-5, he needs to set the turns to 25 or so.

This is a fact I kept in mind in most battles I designed.

That begs the question: why not have variable endings since they are truly variable. Should we turn off the variable penetration model as well, to make it one hit, one kill?

WWB

[Moriarty]

Originally posted by wwb_99:

That begs the question: why not have variable endings since they are truly variable. Should we turn off the variable penetration model as well, to make it one hit, one kill?

WWB

Nah, don't do that. I'd still lose ... but faster.

[Cpt Kernow]

I think we are forgetting just how gamey some CMBO quick battles where.

Ive just finished a CMBO QB PBEM game (35 turns)

On turn 28 my opponent was asking me to surrender, by turn 35 I had launched a sneak counter attack and retaken every flag on the map (3)

The satisfaction of carrying out this strategy was undermined by seeing my victory taken away from me by my opponent flag rushing a sherman to each flag on the very last turn. This lead to some of the flags being disputed. Of course in real terms these shermans now had a life expectancy of much less than a minute but in game terms that minute was never going to happen.

Anything that ends this kind of gameyness has to be a good thing. If you dont like it just turn it off. My only minor gripe would be that the variable endings dont seem that variable, e.g. there is allways a lot of extra turns, its rare to see just one or two extra turns. A bit more unpredictability would be good as this is the effect variable endings are looking for.

[ December 12, 2002, 05:16 AM: Message edited by: Cpt Kernow ]

[Treeburst155]

I think variable endings are a good thing , for all the reasons Cpt Kernow stated above. There are two things about them that are of interest/concern to me.

1) They don't work like the manual states. IOW, a VTE scenario will ALWAYS yield more turns than designated by the designer.

2) The variation in the number of extra turns can be quite large. This is not real good from a competition perspective. Attacker A's variable ending may yield only three extra turns, while Attacker B manages 10 extra turns. These seven additional turns can have a huge effect on the final score, and it's purely a luck element.

For competition purposes it would be nice if the variable ending was from 0-5 additional turns rather than 1-10 (there's always at least one additional turn it seems). In the Kernow example above, just an extra turn or two would have thwarted the tank rush according to him.

IMO, the huge amount of luck added to the scenario is too heavy a price to pay to prevent flag rushes. This luck element could be reduced easily and substantially simply by cutting max variability to 5 turns or 12% of original scenario length. Flag rushes would still be more difficult to time.

Treeburst155 out.