Take No Prisoners!

[Bruno Weiss]

The situation.

In a human vs human QB, the remainder of a British infantry rifle squad (5 men), have surrendered on the previous turn in a woods hex, and have been ordered by the Germans to cross an open area to their front directly across the firing path of a 251/9 (about 40 meters away), and towards an off-board FO (about 50-60 meters away), and at an angle to their right front.

To the Brit right front quarter is the German 251/9, which forced their surrender. To their left front quarter, at about 60 meters is a MarderII in reverse and departing, which did most of the previous damage to the squad just prior to their surrender. To the British unit's left rear quarter at about 50 meters is a Brit HQ unit, and a full Brit rifle squad in a woods area.

The turns starts.

The 251/9 and the Marder open fire on the full rifle squad to the surrendered units rear quarter. The surrendered unit begins to move as ordered across the open field towards the woods with the FO. About 35-40 seconds into the turn, the 251/9 again fires its main gun, this time over the heads of the captured British unit at the now retreating full Brit squad which is about 70 meters away and hightailing it. Meanwhile, the surrendered British squad up and stops directly in front of the 251/9 about 20 meters away and starts tossing grenades at the blighters. I watched in fascination as the enemy infantry unit screen flipped from CAPTURED to once again active and on top of all else, they got the brass to take on the 251/9 while sitting in the open directly to its front. (They grow em tough in Birmingham aye Himey!).

It was something right out of Guadalcanal. I've never seen this happen. I know that if prisoners are left unguarded or are rescued they will revert back to an active status, but this was an instance where the captured unit was nearly on top of an armed enemy that had them in its sights. Which, ofcourse, the fairly surprised 251/9 then begins to pepper the escapees with its MG. Three seconds later, the turn ends. (Zay vill pay for zis treason!).

The question.

Should one go postal and refuse surrender, eliminating an enemy unit with its hands in the air to prevent it from becomming a threat? Murder to some maybe, a technical strategy to others, but however ones chooses to look at it, the escaped prisoners became a real and dangerous threat to the 251/9. Therefore, the question as to the propriety of eliminating captured enemy units that are near to friendly units to which they might become a threat. (I can just hear opponents now yelling MALMEDY MALMEDY!!). And to top it all off, yes these are SS troops in this situation.

Hmmm, kinda weirdly interesting that the game would force such an issue when ya think about it.

[ August 19, 2002, 08:32 PM: Message edited by: Bruno Weiss ]

[Michael Dorosh]

The game doesn't let you direct fire at prisoners, so the point is moot, no?

[Bruno Weiss]

Eeennnntt. Suppression fire Michael Dorosh. Suppression fire can damage and cause units to take flight. I've seen POW's eliminated by fire which hit them indirectly. Purposely directing suppression fire at captured units would at the very least I should think, motivate them to remain captured.

[ August 19, 2002, 08:42 PM: Message edited by: Bruno Weiss ]

[Hamstersss]

You should accept, graciously, mind you, their surrender. And, if they have the guile and will to hide a few grenades, or even a Bolshevik audacity to surrender only under the pretenses to destroy your war machine, you should salute them with your last breath.

It reminds me of those bloody-minded Confederates at Fredericksburg (Or was it Cold Harbor?), who said, upon seeing the bravery of their opponents, "We forgot they were fighting us and cheered at their courage."

My God man, everyone dies, not everyone dies with honor.

[ August 19, 2002, 08:44 PM: Message edited by: Elijah Meeks ]

[Michael Emrys]

Whoever forgot to frisk the prisoners for grenades or other nasty surprises should be court martialed and possibly shot.

Michael

[Hamstersss]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:

Whoever forgot to frisk the prisoners for grenades or other nasty surprises should be court martialed and possibly shot.

Michael

Suppression fire near the 251/9 until it abandons and then more suppression fire on its crew?

I wonder how I'd respond if I saw an opponent doing this during a QB? Probably retreat off the map and go buy Barbie Fashion Designer 2003.

[Bruno Weiss]

Well, the question arises because I could have targeted suppression fire at the surrendered Brits with the 251/9's main gun. Either dispatching them altogether, or causing them to take flight, at the very least keeping their heads down (even if their lil hands was up).

But nooooo, I was trying to be civil and chival about the whole thing (and avoid a postwar tribunal) by allowing the lil bastages to enjoy one of our nicely furnished POW camps. To repay my generosity, they turn on me like a pit viper at the first chance they get.

Like I say, never seen this happen. But you can bet I'm gonna be thinking twice from now on about what to do with POW's.

[ August 19, 2002, 09:27 PM: Message edited by: Bruno Weiss ]

[TexasToast]

Hmmm, sounds familiar...

Actually, I was surprised they surrendered so quickly with their HQ and other forces nearby. I made a concerted effort to bring more forces up to try to "liberate" them, and it worked. I have managed to pull it off a few other times, including once where I sent a A/C in to rescue a captured MG team.

Something to tell the grandkids about, I guess.

TT

Oh, I forgot to add that prisoners count double, so shooting at your own prisoners is just going to cost you points. That's another reason why I wanted them back.

[ August 19, 2002, 10:26 PM: Message edited by: TexasToast ]

[Michael Emrys]

Now I have heard of Texas Tea, but what is Texas Toast?

:confused:

Michael

[Guest Panzer Boxb]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:

Now I have heard of Texas Tea, but what is Texas Toast?

:confused:

Michael

Well, you know how they do things in Texas...everything's got to be bigger. Texas Toast is no exception. Just think regular toast only about twice as thick. I've seen a few "special" variations but that is the usual characteristic.

[Bruno Weiss]

I'll have to take another closer look at that TT. The HQ unit, and the infantry squad were there when the second squad surrendered. I didn't note they moved closer. Guess I missed that. Even a few meters would have made the difference. The close proxmity of the British HQ unit obviously reactivated the captured squad, and the fact that only the 251/9 was in the immediate vicinity and not any German infantry (save for an unarmed FO), obviously allowed the HQ unit to exert its control over the captured unit. That much is pretty clear. But what got me, was that the captured unit began to follow German orders to move out, and only when it got in front of the 251/9 did they then stop and start tossing grenades at it. Only thing I can figure is that the angle of the tree lines caused a situation where the HQ unit's strongest LOS was when the captured squad was out in the open where it is now. And, at that point it switched back to active.

Whatever the technicalities, sure gives me a whole new way of thinking about captured units. That one really threw me.

[ August 20, 2002, 12:51 AM: Message edited by: Bruno Weiss ]

[MrSpkr]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

The game doesn't let you direct fire at prisoners, so the point is moot, no?

Don't you remember a certain multiplayer CMBO scenario in the Ardennes . . . . . .

[Pacestick]

Hello Bruno

Are you sure the grenades were coming from the unsurrendered troops. Once captured and then escaped ,their status is unarmed and they do not fire or throw grenades.

Have another look at the replay, as far as I know what you are describing is impossible. I am curious to know if what you are saying is in fact correct.

[Bruno Weiss]

Yep. They could not have come from anywhere else, no other infantry is close enough. Closest enemy infantry unit to the 251/9 is at least 60-70 meters and in a woods. Also, the film clearly shows the captured unit in question stopping, and attacking the 251/9 (at 20 meters), and throwing grenades.

[Bruno Weiss]

Okay, wait a second. My opponent says he has studied the film and it ain't the captured unit that threw the grenades. I gotta take a really close look at this. No wonder the Army invited hollywood to document the war.

[Bruno Weiss]

Alright, this gets mysteriouser and mysteriouser. On third review and study of the Zagruder film, the 251/9 is attacked by something just prior to its pulling back and to the left, (back and to the left, back and to the left). Now, the British HQ unit which is on a grassy knoll (I ain't crapping ya, it's a grassy knoll for cripes sake), about 50 meters to the 251/9's front, is firing at the FO. Not at the halftrack.

The captured unit, turned active in fact hits the ground when the 251/9's main gun fires (it turns out they were a patsy after all). So on further examination by the committee, the captured unit did not toss the grenade. Who did!?!

There is no one around. No infantry unit is within 50 meters, and the only other enemy infantry unit is a good 70 meters away and firing at a German infantry unit, both in heavy woods.

This is vary inneresting. My opponent might know, but might not want to divulge it nor should he, particulary if it is a hidden mortar somewhere's to the 251/9's rear. But, if it were, then it'd have to be of a 50mm variety, something small, similar to a handgrenade and it only took one shot.

We need a blow up photo analysis of that grassy knoll area.

[ August 21, 2002, 03:16 PM: Message edited by: Bruno Weiss ]

[Pacestick]

Hello Bruno

Thanks for clearing that up. On a grassy knoll you say? The HQ unit is obviously acting alone and must be bouncing grenades off one tree onto another so that the grenades are arriving at the Hts location in what appears to you as an S shaped arc. Strange yes but I have heard of something similar happening before

[Bruno Weiss]

I'm having the film analyzed frame by frame and gathering information from onscene witnesses.

[Michael Emrys]

...But the witnesses have all mysteriously perished. Odd that so many people have died at once...

Michael

[Bruno Weiss]

You can say that again. British infantry is ever where. Their like the damn Zulu er somefink. Done run at me for 300 meters er more and they keep coming. And their all tossing grenades at the 251/9 now. I spose it'll be spears next.

Ya ortta see this, it's been a valiant assult.

[ August 21, 2002, 11:50 PM: Message edited by: Bruno Weiss ]

[Frunze]

Originally posted by Bruno Weiss:

My opponent might know, but might not want to divulge it nor should he, particulary if it is a hidden mortar somewhere's to the 251/9's rear. But, if it were, then it'd have to be of a 50mm variety, something small, similar to a handgrenade and it only took one shot.

You mean something kinda like a PIAT?

[ParaBellum]

Originally posted by Frunze:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bruno Weiss:

My opponent might know, but might not want to divulge it nor should he, particulary if it is a hidden mortar somewhere's to the 251/9's rear. But, if it were, then it'd have to be of a 50mm variety, something small, similar to a handgrenade and it only took one shot.

You mean something kinda like a PIAT?</font>

[Frunze]

Speaking of "take no prisoners", I was just looking at some old turnfiles for an AAR I was writing, and I noticed my opponent was trying to use area fire to kill one of my prisoners. Probably to deprive me of the points.

That's right, trying to kill his own men just because they'd surrendered. Now that's a war crime.

And I was the one commanding SS in that scenario. If anyone was going to be committing war crimes, it shoulda been them.

Actually, the SS did kill one prisoner in that game, and without any orders from me. At the court-martial, they claimed to have thrown the grenade just before he surrendered, so it went off after. Yeah, right. Nazi bastards.

[Thin Red Line]

Originally posted by Frunze:

That's right, trying to kill his own men just because they'd surrendered. Now that's a war crime.

This is pure cheating IMHO. Unacceptable.

[Bruno Weiss]

No, it ain't no PIAT. Nothing was back there but my troops. Was talking long distance and that might only be a mortar, but this is in heavy fog so LOS is limited.