Who Else Has Been Beaten Bad On Cemetery Hill?

[Col Deadmarsh]

Man...what a tough scenario!

How many of you actually won on the first try? Me, I'm gonna need another go at it but I can't help but think that it's almost like a puzzle that needs to be solved...

[MikeyD]

Who else? EVERYBODY ELSE!

That scenario's become notorious! If it were Mike Tyson we'd all be missing earlobes.

[Stalin's Organ]

I managed to sneak a minor loss 1st time up, with the computer sneaking a mutual ceasefire right on T20 as I formed up a platoon to assault the objective!

Bleedin' cheating AI plays hte minimum turns if I stand a chance, the maximum when I'm getting thrashed!! lol

[JaegerMeister]

Got my ass handed to me big time !...has anyone beaten it, would be a better thread. I would be interested to know their tactics.

[Agua]

There are at least two threads on this one. One is in "Scenario Talk", and the other *may* be in "Tips & Tricks". Someone gave a brief general description of how they achieved a major on it, though I don't believe it was their first try.

It is VERY tough. I think I played it 6 times or more and never did better than minor victory.

[Bergerbitz]

I managed to work out a draw (playing as the Germans) on that scenario. Had to move real fast to get it, though.

[jgdpzr]

I am not trying to brag, but I got a major victory on the first go. I must have been lucky, because, honestly, I didn't find it that difficult. I setup a strong fire support base in the woods (mgs, IG, ACs) and loaded everything else on my far right flank. I pinned/smoked the enemy units in the town, and advanced/cleared his left flank and then rolled up the line. I was fortunate in that only one ATG ever had LOS on my vehicles (in the woods on his left flank) and it was taken out the turn after it appeared and before it could take out any vehicles (it was in the path of my entire manuever element so it quickly bought it). The other ATG was on the other side of the map (his right flank) and was never engaged. I can't remember how many bunkers the enemy had, but they/it were on the side of the map I didn't engage. I remember I did take one out from behind near the very end of the battle after I had cleared most of the town. It was to his right of the town, just far enough so as to not have LOS on any of my units.

One of the keys for me was placement of the IG. I placed it in one of the corners of the zig-zag placement zone so as to have LOS to as much of the town as possible. I used it to level every building it could see before my assault-proper began. It was the big killer for me, I remember that. The other key was adequate suppression. My support base was in good position to suppress each enemy position in front of the advance of my manuever element, thereby facilitating a fairly rapid advance. Because of terrain (and careful use of smoke), I never had to worry about enfilade fire into my advance.

Since my experience seems to differ from many people's, I must have gotten lucky with how the AI setup it's troops. I can't remember if I used default setup or let the computer pick it. I usually leave it as the designer sets it, so it would have been as such.

[MikeyD]

Y'know, jgdpzr, I tried EXAACTLY those tactics and still got my butt fried. Maybe that's why I still enjoy playing the AI - I ain't smart enough to beat it!

[Engel]

I got minor victory on my second time, the first time I was still learning the game (not a good scenario for that). I was pretty close to achieving total victory, but rushed a bit too much as time was running short and wasted men for nothing and hence didn't have the strenght left to take the church completely.

[jgdpzr]

MikeyD,

As I said, I must have had the benefit of poor force deployment by the AI. I know his bunker(s) were a total non-factor, as was his second ATG. Also, he opened fire with the one ATG I did encounter right at the end of a turn, thereby allowing me to put considerable firepower on it with the start of the next turn. Question, what was it that stopped you if you tried the same approach I did? Did you encounter bunker(s), both ATGs, or what? Just trying to figure out what kind of a break I must have received. I'm scratching my head because I really only did the obvious things and prospered, while others have had lots of problems with the scenario.

[Hoopenfaust2]

First time I played, like you guys, really got beaten.

Second time I played, I got a draw, and then realized looking at the AAR map, that his AT guns were in different places from the first time I played. Obviously I forgot to select scenario default set up. I think thats how jgdpzr got a major victory.

[ November 22, 2002, 03:10 PM: Message edited by: Hoopenfaust 101 ]

[SuperSulo]

Yes, it should be played with "Scenario Default" setup for the AI, otherwise it doesn't count

SPOILER (Is the still needed? Has anyone NOT played this one yet?)

It has one MG bunker in that darn house! If the ai is allowed to set up it's units, it will place it somewhere else.

Oh and Edge-hogging is just gamey

Everybody falls their first time...

[Agua]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

Y'know, jgdpzr, I tried EXAACTLY those tactics and still got my butt fried.

LOL, yeah me too.

jgdpzr - If you had the scenario set for default deployment, then you experienced the same defensive setup the rest of us did. You have every right to brag on that if you want man.

[kunstler]

I got smoked on this map.

To err on the side of caution, although I think the thread title makes it implicit, SPOILER ALERT

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Computer setups generally aren't that good. But have a human set up the defenses and the AI can make a dam good show of itself, especially if it's role is static. Quick battles with human set up defenses are all scenarios really need to be. The computer can run a static defense (depending on circumstance) sometimes as well as a human can.

The mines along the trees of the road really killed me on the right flank. I got my boys to the far right woods intact, but the troops lining the wood impeded the advance, my inf gun ran out of ammo and kept missing when it had shells, and my support/fire base squads ran out of ammo fairly quickly. That I find is a real problem with CMBB, I have to figure out how to conserve ammunition better.

I opted for a cease fire at turn 17, at which point most troops were either out of ammo or had taken heavy casualties. There were still plenty of soviets, including troops reinforcing from the far left flank. Couldn't get any flamethrowers close enough to do any damage. I've only managed to use them effectively in city/block fighting.

If you get lucky and take out the bunker and AT gun early, it's easier but the routes of advance are so limited. Running across open ground is suicidal. I tried smoke but none appeared on the map (bug or just not enough smoke shells?).

Very tough scenario. I'm not sure I could take the hill even knowing the defensive layout.

cheers,

kunstler

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

Y'know, jgdpzr, I tried EXAACTLY those tactics and still got my butt fried. Maybe that's why I still enjoy playing the AI - I ain't smart enough to beat it!

Same here -- I got an auto-ceasefire minor defeat, trying it for the first time with the patch.

All the best,

John.

[ November 22, 2002, 04:13 PM: Message edited by: John D Salt ]

[MikeyD]

jgdpzr, I can't remember the details of why I failed in my tactics (and you succeeded). I seem to recall my smoke screen lifting too early and a few units being supressed from an unexpected direction when they reached the road.

That's what makes CM so playable, rerun the same scenario, do exactly the same thing and some subtle variable will mean the difference between victory and defeat. For example, your artillery man getting hit by a stray round. I HATE when that happens!

[Mack]

Tried some of the tactics mentioned here and still received a severe butt kicking. Sometimes brute force is required so I took 25% extra force strength and attacked the centre of town with everything at once (Somme tactics). It did not go well, although moral remained high as my troops eating grass were kept warm by my armour burning nearby.

[Snarker]

I won it handily. It was glorious! Never lost a man.

Then the alarm went off, I sat up in bed and cussed.

[russellmz]

Originally posted by Mack:

Tried some of the tactics mentioned here and still received a severe butt kicking. Sometimes brute force is required so I took 25% extra force strength and attacked the centre of town with everything at once (Somme tactics). It did not go well, although moral remained high as my troops eating grass were kept warm by my armour burning nearby.

Originally posted by Snarker:

I won it handily. It was glorious! Never lost a man.

Then the alarm went off, I sat up in bed and cussed.

lol, awesome posts.

i just read on the cmbo forum, some guy said he played cemetery hill over and over again till he got tired of it and now cmbb sits on his shelf. i wonder whether he knew it is one of the more difficult scenarios...

[Michael Dorosh]

The AI has a serious problem when left to freely set up - AT guns and bunkers often go in a back corner of the map, despite LOS blockages or the location of victory flags. I found this out with a scenario of my own design that counted on the AT guns as part of the defence.

In this one, as I mention at the Scenario Depot (and for anyone who hasn't taken the time to review it there - shame on you) during my run through of Cemetery Hill vs. the AI

SPOILERS

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the AI just set up two bunkers and an AT gun (if memory serves) in the far corner, side by each, behind some houses. I can see the logic in setting AT guns back from the main line, but on small maps, this just doesn't work out. Not a bug, I guess, but a disadvantage.

What CM needs is two scenario settings maybe - vs. AI and vs. Human. For vs. AI, you could padlock all the defenders' locations, and for a human-controlled defence, you could allow free set up. Perhaps a feature where the designer could set a toggle - "if Russian defender controlled by AI, use scenario default, if Russian defender controlled by human, allow free set up". I know we are supposed to read the scenario briefing and figure that out, but it woudl be neat to be able to force any players to select from those options too.

[demoss]

Spanked like a red-headed stepchild.

I tried rolling up the flank (seemed like the obvious thing to do given the terrain). I took out the bunker with an AC. I took out the AT gun on that side with a mortar. The only vehicle loss I suffered was an AC to one of the 82mm mortars (can't really blame me for not avoiding THAT, IMO). I blasted buildings to rubble with the IG. I routed enemy units out of the trench.

IT JUST DIDN'T MATTER. There were too many men backing it up, and not enough smoke to put together a significant smoke screen (though falling buildings helped ).

I'll try it again sometime, but I'm not hopeful given that from what people are saying, it sounds like I basically did it right.

[Stug30]

Originally posted by jgdpzr:

I am not trying to brag, but I got a major victory on the first go. I must have been lucky, because, honestly, I didn't find it that difficult. I setup a strong fire support base in the woods (mgs, IG, ACs) and loaded everything else on my far right flank. I pinned/smoked the enemy units in the town, and advanced/cleared his left flank and then rolled up the line. I was fortunate in that only one ATG ever had LOS on my vehicles (in the woods on his left flank) and it was taken out the turn after it appeared and before it could take out any vehicles (it was in the path of my entire manuever element so it quickly bought it). The other ATG was on the other side of the map (his right flank) and was never engaged. I can't remember how many bunkers the enemy had, but they/it were on the side of the map I didn't engage. I remember I did take one out from behind near the very end of the battle after I had cleared most of the town. It was to his right of the town, just far enough so as to not have LOS on any of my units.

One of the keys for me was placement of the IG. I placed it in one of the corners of the zig-zag placement zone so as to have LOS to as much of the town as possible. I used it to level every building it could see before my assault-proper began. It was the big killer for me, I remember that. The other key was adequate suppression. My support base was in good position to suppress each enemy position in front of the advance of my manuever element, thereby facilitating a fairly rapid advance. Because of terrain (and careful use of smoke), I never had to worry about enfilade fire into my advance.

Since my experience seems to differ from many people's, I must have gotten lucky with how the AI setup it's troops. I can't remember if I used default setup or let the computer pick it. I usually leave it as the designer sets it, so it would have been as such.

I may be mistaken, but it sounds like you let the computer set up on its own. If you leave it on the default. There will be one MG Bunker at the bottom of the church, and two AT Guns dug in on either side. Plus that defensive line (barbed wire and fox holes) guarding an attack from the right flank.

[Eden Smallwood]

SuperSulo:

If the preferred avenue of approach is near the edge, then that's where I'm going. My conclusion would be that the map should be a bit wider, rather than feel guilty for advancing near the edge.

Mr Dorosh:

Yes indeed- shame on me for not reviewing Cemetery, among many many others. However, I have made a bit of progress in the review dept. I have maybe three or four or so, but Cemetery will be absolutely the *last* one I review- the Colonel, ( the first person in recent memory to spell Cemetery correctly in a post subject; I'd expect no less from a Colonel ), is possibly the last person here who does not know very well what we all think of it. As long as I'm behind, I'm focusing on two types of scenarios- those I really like, and those that I like or have potential, but are in some way busted. And scenarios on the CD can wait till the end- we're all going to play them all anyhow! But I guess I'm addressing your other thread here, sorry; back to the Cemetery with us:

I've played it two or three times- the first time as defender. Oops, but I was pretty new to CM and didn't know what the heck was going on.

I play "cautiously", and do not bring out armor from the back row unless the infantry encounter a roadblock they cannot reasonably defeat by themselves, or unless it's time to "mop up".

One set of armor I kept hidden near that corner, waiting for the infantry to get somewhere; the other set I *oooozed* out of the left side of the forest in the middle, painfully slowly, trying to entice that first ATG shot which by all rights should have been staring right at me, but in fact never came.

In the corner, I located and took an ATG with infantry, by assault no less, having run out of mortar long ago. It was painful, but acceptable, there being few other options- I have the corner. Now who's still firing at me?

Both of my 'bring-out-the-big-guns' prerequisite conditions applied soon enough- the troops were having a heck of a time getting anywhere, and an EFOW cloaked pillbox finally revealed itself way on the back row, where it would take days to get to with infantry at the current rate. It looks like the defenders need just a touch of cold steel to send them screaming anyhow.

The troops have taken the corner up to and including the houses, ( yes, they're still standing, you violent people ), around the roadblock; I drove all my fully functioning vehicles to a point just inside the roadblock, and they've got a big score to settle.

Ceasefire/Draw on turn 20. Too many troops are low on ammo, but I wish they would have consulted their commander first, because the vehicles are ready to rumble. For me personally it is disappointing not to have a small flag in that corner, since taking that seems to me true progress, but there you are.

Eden

[mike the wino2]

Played once and killed in it.

I think I had 3 squads with 3-4 in each squad, 1 AFT, no ammo and got a minor victory. That ATG just left of the road waxed my HT w/ inf gun. I moved my troops over the to right, staged in the trees for fire support. The inf gun worked the line over after I spotted a good number of trenchs. I was leapfrogging squads into the trenches and had half of my men in the trench and then the Ruskies opened up. His guns were pretty useless other than the HT first shot kill. :mad:

When that started to fall apart scooted farther right. Rolled up the oustside elemants and advanced into the town. Moving up hill and advancing house to house I reinforced my battered assualt force. Rolled em right back off the map. Well the AFV helped too. Can't remember what they were but those 20mms can take out a MG bunker if you are patient.

Lots of fun. Maybe I will play it again and see if I get my ass spanked.

[SuperSulo]

Eden Smallwood

Indeed, notice the smiley in my previous post.