Nebelwerfer

[Tero]

Originally posted by Andreas:

I would also be interested in an assessment of 120mm mortar effectiveness against dug-in troops. My suspicion is that it is not high.

It lacks the MV of regular field arty. That would make it rather ineffective against fortified (concrete) bunkers. Earthen/wooden bunkers are a different thing but I'd say the concussion effect would play a bigger role than the fragmentation effect in either case.

The angle of attack of the shell is so steep they would propably get inside slit trenches easier than the field arty rounds.

Also, if the defenders can not hear the round leaving the tube chances are the first rounds could score more kills before the defenders have time to take cover because mortar rounds give practically no advance warning before detonation.

[MajorBooBoo]

I will reiterate what my example demonstrates.

A single mortar round of 120mm caliber (maybe an outlier/perfect hit..doesnt matter) could be an extremely efficient killing device.

Do you think a single Nebelwerfer 15cm in the same situation would have wreaked such results? I dont think so. I have already stated my reasons. Less HE and less metal frags.

Thats all. I dont want to hear or address "shooting myself in the foot". Thats not part of the debate. The thread started about an inquiry into the seemingly small HE payload of this mass produced weapon (15cm nebelwerfer). I think I threw some good posted info, citing sources, etc. Its very interesting. The fact is the germans made thousands of these 15cm and over 4 million rockets for them. It raises some interesting points. Should they have gone for larger rockets instead? Should they have developed a cluster munition for these?

I believe the soviet accounts describe saturation barrages by this weapon. Simple math shows that a single 4 launcher barrage is putting out 24 rockets times 75 pounds each. Thats 1800 pounds. Without packing material. That same raw weight would net you over 50 120mm mortar rounds that werent as bulky (and had more HE). I dont think that the nebelwerfers were of much use UNLESS ripple or mass fired. They achieved "cluster" like effects this way (which the soviets fell under). 50 x 120mm mortar bombs is much more flexible in the amount of targets they could engage.

Nebelwerfers should be very expensive and rare in the game. Like airpower.

[MajorBooBoo]

Originally posted by Big Time Software:

Although I am not saying that our numbers are perfect, they are far more realistic in the simulation that is CM than going with straight math. We have also just purchased a bunch of research data the Germans produced during WWII to study such effects. Have no clue what it has to say yet as the info came to us yesterday and is very much in need of translation by Martin

Steve

I have read some of the German info regarding their R&D on projectiles/fragmentation. They clearly were at the foremost in looking into improvements. Their lead in hollow charge being an example.

I remember reading they even setup a low pressure chamber that they could fire/detonate HE rounds (simulating high altitude). The major discovery being that HE isnt important but fragmentation is (if you want to shoot down a plane). They optimized the autocannons for planes and perhaps 88 shells this way. Sort of the opposite of underwater detonations where frags dont matter and HE is the key (shockwave). I also beleive they felt cast or drawn materials were best for shell fragmentation. Using strong steel was wasteful because it took energy away from the explosion (to crack the metal) and the frag pieces were rather large.

The germans were even looking into hollow charge as an AA shell. They should have put the rocket program time into a mini-V2 that could reach up to the bombers and have a nose cone full of panzerfaust!

[Battlefront.com]

MajorBooBoo,

Do you think a single Nebelwerfer 15cm in the same situation would have wreaked such results?

You mean a single round slamming into the middle of an elbow to elbow crowded marketplace with upright standing civilians in a large open area with only flimsy wooden carts for protection? No, I don't know of a single instance of this in WWII at all, with any weapon of any sort. Hard to compare apples to oranges.

Look, this is turing to a VERY unproductive argument which has absolutely no point. The 120mm was highly effective. That has been pointed out by several people, including John. It is a weapon to be feared and respected on the battelfield. In terms of general application, it was most likely a far more effective and cost efficeint weapon compared to conventional and rocket artillery. But each has their own +/- and it is utterly juvenile to get into a "my weapon is bigger than your weapon" pissing match.

So unless this thread gets itself back on topic (if there is anything even left to discuss) I will lock it up tight.

Steve

P.S. That mortar round, BTW, ended my return trip to Slovenia. I was sitting in a bar in Madrid at the time it hit and once my wife (then girlfriend) saw it she rulled out any chance I had of getting anywhere near the former Yugoslavia. No rationalizing of the situation could overcome those images seen on TV.

[Maple Tree]

Originally posted by Big Time Software:

"CM uses BOTH shell weight AND amount of explosive filler."

Steve

Hello,

Would you or an assistant be willing to post this type of information on a webpage so that we can all share in them. Particularly, if it will improve a players abilities.

[Battlefront.com]

MajorBooBoo,

I dont think that the nebelwerfers were of much use UNLESS ripple or mass fired.

That was what they were designed for, so the conclusion is logical. "Stalin's Organs" were also designed to be fired in massed volleys for the same reason, and although much smaller per rocket they had an equally devistating effect on German troops. Few things in the war caused seasoned German veterans to literally run away from their positions, but when this weapon was first used... that was exactly what happened. Obviously the Germans "got over it", but what a nasty shocker.

Rocket artillery, like all weapons/units, will be priced using the Rarity system (if that option is chosen). Yes, this will make things like Nebelwerfers quite expensive.

MapleTree,

Sorry, no go on posting the info. This stuff is burried in the code so only Charles can pull it out. Plus, it is of absolutely no use to anybody since the Blast Effect is what the game system uses to determine combat effects. Therefore, knowing this information won't help players in any way.

Steve

[Puff the Magic Dragon]

Andreas - Erwin Rommel says in his early book 'Infantrie greift an' ('Infantry attacks') that artillery of light and medium caliber is very ineffective against dug in infantry. This was one of his first impressions as Leutnant in WW One. BTW, the BW want to abolish the 120mm. The old barrels are worn out, they have no money for new barrels, and in general they reconsider the further need of this weapon.

About the 'unwounded dead soldiers' - AFAIK, a big explosion simply rupture the lung, the soldier looks unwounded, cause he is drowned in his own blood. But I imagine this effect is caused by the real big Nebelwerfers: 32cm (39,8kg explosives), 28cm (49,9kg explosives), 30cm (44,66kg explosives) :eek:

[Redwolf]

I didn't see that mentioned in this thread so far:

The point about the Nebelwerfers is that they deliver many more projectiles in each volley, which is especially important for the first impact when the targeted unit doesn't really has their heads down. Nebelwerfer accomblish that by having an extremly cheap, light and small launch system compared to a real gun. Try mounting six 105mm howitzers on a 251/1. Too heavy? Mount them without recoil system.

P.S. if somebody doubts that CMBO has a more complex HE shell model than the single blast value, try driving a sqaud out of a foxhole with the Hummel and the 150mm infantry gun. The infantry gun does it much faster, although it has almost 20% less blast value.

[Spook]

Originally posted by MajorBooBoo:

Nebelwerfers should be very expensive and rare in the game. Like airpower.

Or as rare as, say, a 14-inch naval gun or a German railway gun?

NW's should certainly be tempered by a rarity system, of course. But concerning certain periods and campaigns, rarity is still a relative value. By example of Normandy, NW's made up a significant portion of German corps-level artillery; at least seven battalions' worth, IIRC.

[MajorBooBoo]

I think its an interesting discussion nonetheless. I think critical analysis of uber-legends will always bring out heated arguments.

One issue about the Nebelwerfs with the HE in the back. From a physics standpoint, this is not ideal. As the propellent gets spent, you could have a hollow formed in the front of a spinning projectile. This leads to nutation and procession. and at long ranges, the accuracy would be severely affected.

I personally like the Maultier as a 15cm weapon. Used in close cooperation with mech forces, it has a place and should have been taken over on a bigger scale by the sturmartillerie. For indirect, I think the germans should have concentrated on heavier weapons.

The reload rate of these weapons was not only hampered by the size/wight but also the need for electrical firing. This was further hampered by the need to move after every barrage firing. Allied counter battery and air power had them in the envelope and it was better to move to the ammo then have the ammo move to them.

Does anyone have any drawings of the projectiles?

[Simon Fox]

Originally posted by MajorBooBoo:

I remember reading they even setup a low pressure chamber that they could fire/detonate HE rounds (simulating high altitude). The major discovery being that HE isnt important but fragmentation is (if you want to shoot down a plane). They optimized the autocannons for planes and perhaps 88 shells this way. Sort of the opposite of underwater detonations where frags dont matter and HE is the key (shockwave). I also beleive they felt cast or drawn materials were best for shell fragmentation. Using strong steel was wasteful because it took energy away from the explosion (to crack the metal) and the frag pieces were rather large.[/QB]

Interestingly this point seems to have paralells in British operational research of the time. As has been alluded to in this thread a number of factors contribute to the effectiveness of a particular shell/rocket/round type in addition to merely the weight of explosive including explosive type, fusing, metallurgy of the casing, etc, etc.

[MajorBooBoo]

Originally posted by Spook:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MajorBooBoo:

Nebelwerfers should be very expensive and rare in the game. Like airpower.

NW's should certainly be tempered by a rarity system, of course. But concerning certain periods and campaigns, rarity is still a relative value. By example of Normandy, NW's made up a significant portion of German corps-level artillery; at least seven battalions' worth, IIRC.</font>

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by MajorBooBoo:

Nebelwerfer rockets must have been a strain on the german supply system. As has been said, they are large/heavy/bulky. One barrage from one 4 launcher battery would need at least a large truck

to transport those rockets. Perhaps two large trucks because of the bulk. Once the Germans depleted available stocks, they were hurting and could not fight the battle they intended.

The Germans in Normandy had a major problem with resupply. large bulky items like rockets, 88mm shells, panzerfaust, even the potato masher grenade took up alot of room.

That is correct. However, while the Nebelwerfers had the disadvantage of needing more supply resources for a given effect of a barrage, they have a real advantage over real guns. That is that the firing system is much easier to move and/or to keep alife and available in an environment of total enemy air superiority and/or frequent hasty retreats. Also, at least the Americans had means to locate enemy batteries for counterfire. While primitive and inexact, they had all the ammo they wanted to saturate an area around the suspected location. Overall, I think the Germans were better off with the Nebelwerfers at the West Front, especially since they met inexperienced or otherwise careless troops frequently, at least in Normandy.

[Puff the Magic Dragon]

Major BooBoo The 'Stuka zu Fuß' ('Stuka on feet'), also called 'Heulende Kuh' ('howling cow') was the name of the SdKfz251 with 6 heavy 'Wurfrahmen' for 28/32cm Nebelwerfer.

[Rodimzew]

As far as i understood, the rarity will have a direct influence on unit prize. The rarity could be designed as a constant value or maybe related to timeframe and TO&E (NBWs are less likely in volksgrenadier battalions than in SS-PzGren). IMO the rarity system is a two edged blade....What is the use of expansive NBWs, if you could not buy any other units to exploit any breakthroughs caused by them. No one than newbies would buy NBWs, but 120mm mortars in numbers. Is this really more realistic.

[MajorBooBoo]

Originally posted by redwolf:

That is correct. However, while the Nebelwerfers had the disadvantage of needing more supply resources for a given effect of a barrage, they have a real advantage over real guns. That is that the firing system is much easier to move and/or to keep alife and available in an environment of total enemy air superiority and/or frequent hasty retreats. Also, at least the Americans had means to locate enemy batteries for counterfire. While primitive and inexact, they had all the ammo they wanted to saturate an area around the suspected location. Overall, I think the Germans were better off with the Nebelwerfers at the West Front, especially since they met inexperienced or otherwise careless troops frequently, at least in Normandy.

Everyone had a means to detect them. They gave off plumes of smoke and fire.

I read that Nebeltruppen sometimes took casualties similar to frontline troops. They really broadcast what they were doing and any plane in the area could vector in on the plumes and search the immediate area especially the roads.

Tube artillery would be better off to stay put or to lay back and use longer ranges to stay alive. Nebeltruppen couldnt do that.

I am not sure why you think they had all the ammo the wanted to saturate an area. I cant follow that.

spotting rounds for this form of arty are thumb sketchy at best. Since the rockets have such a variation in range and perpendicular, who's to say a ranging rocket is a good indicator? If it is near target and actually a specimin of being on the outside of its envelope, will the rest of the barrage to centered off target? I would guess accuracy would depend on range and would further guess that long range could have been firing at zip codes..

[MajorBooBoo]

Originally posted by Simon Fox:

Interestingly this point seems to have paralells in British operational research of the time. As has been alluded to in this thread a number of factors contribute to the effectiveness of a particular shell/rocket/round type in addition to merely the weight of explosive including explosive type, fusing, metallurgy of the casing, etc, etc.

[Puff the Magic Dragon]

Rodimzew No one but newbies buy NWs. IMO, they are much to dangerous for the own troops, especially when fired blind they spread over the whole map! The chance to hit own troops is as high as the chance to hit enemy troops.

BTW, Steve - I wonder why a blind fired barrage (doesn't matter which artillery) comes down with greater disperse. This seems to be completly unrealistic. To cause this effect, each barrel needs a slightly different target zone, but what I have seen in the army, a target order is always given for the whole battery*. So, the 'blind barrage' would come in with the same disperse as a 'LOS barrage'. Instead a bigger disperse, it goes to the wrong place. Indictee, what can you say for your defense?

*(exept they prepare a 'target marker', of course)

[Scott B]

Originally posted by Puff the Magic Dragon:

Rodimzew No one but newbies buy NWs. IMO, they are much to dangerous for the own troops, especially when fired blind they spread over the whole map! The chance to hit own troops is as high as the chance to hit enemy troops.

By the same token, I imagine with the "first turn bombardment" and the fact that both sides will have them (and by mid-late war the Soviets probably won't suffer too much from rarity), rockets will likely be much more popular in CMBB.

Scott

[ February 07, 2002, 12:47 PM: Message edited by: Scott B ]

[karch]

I agree with booboo that there the "smokethrower" wasn't perfect, but it did have advantages.

A 5 barrel rocket launcher could be fired, hooked up to transport and gone WAY faster than 5x105mm guns/howizers. Especially with the Maultier (SP). This is a great advantage to avoid counter battery fire.

You are right about the projectile getting more unstable after the rocket burned out and being tail-heavy. Rockets are inherently FAR more innacurate than guns, and the loss of accuracy is probably not measurable worse than the rocket sitting in the tail. The main reason to put the explosive at the back end of the rocket, was so that it didn't bury the warhead into the ground and expend much blast into the ground. Not that I'd call the blast an airburst, but exploding 2-3 feet off the ground was much better than 1 foot under the ground.

No matter how fast you set your mortar fuze, SOME of the blast and fragments will go into the ground, the softer the ground, the further into the ground the mortar penetrates before exploding. That is another advantage... IN SOME INSTANCES.

I seem to recall (an I have read 80% of all books written about WWII ) that rockets were cheaper to make than shells. No machining. Just stamped and spot-welded low quality metal. It might take more room to transport them, but if they were cheap enough, that could be a reason.

Here are the advantages and disadvantages of one battery of Neblewerfers compared to tube artillery:

ADVANTAGES:

1)faster setup

2)higher rate of fire for first ripple (gets more HE downrange faster)

3)faster limber and bugout (for evading counter battery fire)

DISADVANTAGE:

1)Less fragmentation than shells

2) higher need to bug out after firing due to smoke

3) far worse accuracy

4) slower reload once all tubes are empty

Just my thoughts. Interesting posts all.

[karch]

Originally posted by Puff the Magic Dragon:

BTW, Steve - I wonder why a blind fired barrage (doesn't matter which artillery) comes down with greater disperse. This seems to be completly unrealistic. To cause this effect, each barrel needs a slightly different target zone, but what I have seen in the army, a target order is always given for the whole battery*. So, the 'blind barrage' would come in with the same disperse as a 'LOS barrage'. Instead a bigger disperse, it goes to the wrong place. Indictee, what can you say for your defense?

*(exept they prepare a 'target marker', of course)[/QB]

Because you would ASK for greater dispersion. If you can't see where you are firing and you want a better chance of hitting something "somewhere over there". Getting higher dispersion would give you a better chance of hitting SOMETHING rather than a nice tight pattern hitting squat. I figured this was accurate and correct. But not being a 33 year old WWII artillery vet, I really don't know. It just seems right to me. I'd probably ask for higher dispersion if I couldn't see where anything was landing.

[Scott B]

Originally posted by karch:

I seem to recall (an I have read 80% of all books written about WWII ) that rockets were cheaper to make than shells. No machining. Just stamped and spot-welded low quality metal. It might take more room to transport them, but if they were cheap enough, that could be a reason.

How much more propellant did a rocket need than an artillery shell of (roughly) equivalent range and power? That would seem to be a part of the trade off as well.

Scott

[MajorBooBoo]

I will try to find some data on the speed of superquick fuzes in WWII. A point to remember is that a mortar is moving much slowly than a Gun or Howitzer round and therefore any propagation delay associated with striking/detonating is less. Also, the nose is the fuze and if buried, then it doesnt really matter as much as a angled shell burying itself. I have seen the effects of 81mm mortar rounds on the ground and it is typically a web shape and a very small pocket. It was on dry earth though.

Interesting stuff all around. I agree that pre-game bombardments might be a good place for nebelwerfers. Firing, limbering, moving to a new place, unlimbering, reloading and firing again is outside the scope of the game.

By the way, if the goal of a nebelwerfer was to destroy a house, it wouldnt want to be any feet away! blast force falls off with distance.

Mortars attached at Bn or Rg level are just so much closer than Corp level rockets in the CM scope of things.

[MajorBooBoo]

Originally posted by karch:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Puff the Magic Dragon:

BTW, Steve - I wonder why a blind fired barrage (doesn't matter which artillery) comes down with greater disperse. This seems to be completly unrealistic. To cause this effect, each barrel needs a slightly different target zone, but what I have seen in the army, a target order is always given for the whole battery*. So, the 'blind barrage' would come in with the same disperse as a 'LOS barrage'. Instead a bigger disperse, it goes to the wrong place. Indictee, what can you say for your defense?

*(exept they prepare a 'target marker', of course)

Because you would ASK for greater dispersion. If you can't see where you are firing and you want a better chance of hitting something "somewhere over there". Getting higher dispersion would give you a better chance of hitting SOMETHING rather than a nice tight pattern hitting squat. I figured this was accurate and correct. But not being a 33 year old WWII artillery vet, I really don't know. It just seems right to me. I'd probably ask for higher dispersion if I couldn't see where anything was landing.[/QB]</font>

[Maple Tree]

I compiled the following quotes and links about Nebelwerfers for the groups interest.

Question: since Nebelwerfers were originally used for shooting chemical weapons, will we be seeing chemical weapons used in CMBB. It would be interesting seeing chemical clouds cross the battlefield !

"Nebelwerfer => (translation Smoke-thrower) Originally chemical smoke mortar; Later used to describe these units as they started using Rocket Artillery."

"Nebelwerfer: Rocket Artillery. "Nebelwerfer" was originally a term for a chemical smoke mortar. The Nebel units were subsequently used for the rocket artillery when these weapons appeared -- 1) since chemical warfare was not being waged and 2) as a deception to hide the appearance of a new weapon from enemy espionage -- and for a while ( 1941 particularly) a Nebel unit could either be a 10-cm chemical mortar unit or a rocket artillery unit."

"Smoke grenades were available as handgrenades ('Nebelhandgranate'), rifle grenades, grenades for flare-pistols, mortar bombs, artillery shells and smoke-pots ('Nebeltopf'). The term for the infamous 'Nebelwerfer' (literally: "smoke thrower/projektor"), was a disguise for its original application as rocket launchers."

"WURFGRANATE 41 The Wurfgranate 41 was a German 150 mm rocket fired by the Nebelwerfer rocket launcher during the Second World War. The Wurfgranate 41 carried a 2.5 kg warhead and flew at a velocity of 342 m/s to a range of 7055 meters."

"Mobile German rocket batteries were able to lay down heavy and unexpected concentrations of fire on Allied positions. The 150-millimetre Nebelwerfer, a towed, six-tube launcher, was particularly respected by U.S. and British troops, to whom it was known as the "Screaming Meemie" or "Moaning Minnie" for the eerie sound made by the incoming rockets. Maximum range was more than 6,000 yards (5,500 metres)."

"The first rocket guns to be used by the Germans were reported from Russia. They appeared against United States troops in small numbers in the North African campaign and in much larger numbers in Sicily. In general, the Nebelwerfer appears to have five or six parallel hollow tubes bunched together to form a polygon, the entire affair being mounted on a split trail gun carriage of about the size of the United States 37-mm. gun carriage. The tubes are about 5½ feet long, smooth bore, and with a clip to hold the rocket in place when the assembly is elevated. It is fired electrically. Several different sizes of rockets have been discovered, but the 150-mm. (6 tubes) and the 210-mm. (5 tubes) have been found more frequently. The rockets fired from these weapons are nearly as long as the launching tubes. The maximum range of the 150-mm. appears to be between seven and eight thousand yards, and about nine thousand for the 210-mm. Other German rockets are the 280-mm. and 320-mm. Schweres Wurfgerat, which are fired directly from their cages or crates."

"The Nebelwerfer was developed in Germany in the early 1930s. The launcher consisted of six barrels on a mobile carriage adapted from the 37mm anti-tank gun. The six rockets were electrically fired over a period of 10 seconds. The weapon was designed to saturate a target with spin-stabilized smoke, explosive or gas rockers and was first used against the Red Army in the Soviet Union in 1941."

"We also became acquainted with nebelwerfers. They were really scary at all times, but especially so at night. Familiarity however reduced their effect to some degree. When they were fired the sound was like a chorus of sighing groans and screeches, followed by silence while the bombs were in flight and everyone speculated as to where they would land. Les Morrison says that he and two or three others were standing behind E4 chatting and waiting for nebelwerfers to land. The silence ended with a bomb landing 2 or 3 feet in front of the gun. No-one was hurt but they all went to ground after the explosion. They had not heard it coming. On another occasion a projectile landed just outside B Troop command post. One landed on a bivvy tent but fortunately no-one was in it. Les and others described the missile casing as being of light metal that curled back like a half-peeled banana on exploding. It was suggested that apart from putting the wind up all who felt they might be the target, the nebelwerfer was intended to kill or injure by blast rather than fragmentation. Nevertheless a small piece of shrap from an explosion in the E Troop area about 150 yards away knocked my writing material from the ground of my sleeping bivvy onto my head. Next morning its track through a paddock of young oats could be seen in line with a hole in my tent. The War History records that the nebelwerfers would fire and immediately the crew would move the monster under cover. When that was realised the tactics were to keep a gun in various troops laid on a known nebelwerfer position full-time, to be fired immediately the monster sounded off. Jerry countered by firing from a new position each time. Extract from The Sangro and Cassino by Owen Raskin, published in 5th Field Regiment Association Newsletter 22."

"With the attack on Poland in 1939 already some forces of the chemical warfare were used. They were equipped with the 10 cm Nebelwerfer (fog thrower). In the beginning of the war only a few Nebelwerfer troops were available but the low costs of the rocket launchers made it very attractive to the Germans. Besides, the batteries of rocket launchers had an impressive firepower. A brigade could fire 108 rockets in just 10 seconds or 648 rockets in 90 seconds. ( Source Unknown )"

"To avoid being tipped over by the blast while firing, the rockets were fired in the following order: Rockets 1, 4, 5 then 2, 3, 4. The crew had to be 15 yards away from the launcher, and in a trench to avoid the blast from the exhaust.

Weight: Unknown

Magazine: 6 rockets

Effective range: 6900m"

"Unguided rocket artillery, first used by the Chinese one thousand years earlier, reappeared in the form of the German 15 centimeter Nebelwerfer that could fire six 70-pound rockets in less than 3 seconds. The Soviet Katusha, first at 90 millimeter and then 122 millimeter, fired over 40 rockets at once. The American entry, the Calliope, fired 60 rockets at a time. Used as area saturation weapons, these rockets caused large numbers of psychiatric as well as physical casualties."

"Every day for 3 hours Jerry artillery would zero their Moaning Minnies in on the Battalion area. Moaning Minnies was the troops name for the German 150mm Nebelwerfer which was a six barreled mortar which made a terrible moaning sound as they fell from the sky. The noise itself was terrifying enough with out having to worry about where they would land. The 150mm projectile weighed approximately 75lbs and had a range of approximately 7,300 yds."

Pics:

http://www.ni-tech.com/~milref/gfx/Nebelwerfer/

http://www.battlefront.com/resources/museums/mus_iwm/_iwm_images/general/iwm_gen03.jpg

http://www.eksplorator.cud.pl/69.htm

http://www.2ndarmoredhellonwheels.com/images/nebelwerfer.gif

http://home.epix.net/~hemperly/nebelwe.jpg

http://www.photosammler.de/h010503e.htm

http://www.toy-mania.com/military/parade/38.html

http://ln-inter1.bmi.gv.at/web/bmiwebp.nsf/LookupPagenames/EE*Hinweise*Hinweise*Relikte*Relikte08

http://www.privat-militaria.de/angebote/3.htm

http://ca.geocities.com/puffinmagician/War/Wurf41.jpg

[ February 07, 2002, 03:46 PM: Message edited by: Maple Tree ]