CMBO Replay of Band of Brothers Scenario

[rexford]

We were particularly impressed with the TV show where the airborne troops are defending a tree line and the Germans attack with Stug III, Jagdpanther and their paratroopers. All is going so-so until the Shermans come to the rescue and beat back the Germans.

This is the show where the paratroopers run into the open and knock out a Stug with a bazooka.

We set the scenario up with terrain contours and tree lines that seemed to match the TV program, and the Shermans were later turn reinforcements (usually came on board during ninth turn).

Several of the replays matched the show pretty good. The Germans used armor and infantry fire to beat back and pin the Americans, and had the U.S. para's in a box when the Shermans arrived and started blasting the German armor and para's.

Like magic, American infantry rushed out of hiding and attacked under cover of 75mm Sherman HE once the Shermans gained momentum. Instead of retreating as the Americans surged forward, the Jagdpanther stood its ground, took an immobilizing track hit and was knocked out by a bazooka hit to the side.

Oddly enough, the Shermans set up just outside the gun arc of the immobilized Jagdpanther and pounded the German troop positions while the panzer stood without any targets (it was out of HE and no enemy armor to shoot at with AP).

In another replay, American infantry ran forward into the panzer guns, shortly after the Germans took the flag at mid battlefield, and were decimated. Elite troops would do this?

The Jagdpanther charged five Shermans at under 150m but was unable to fire on any of them due to a terrain block (Shermans could be seen from a location behind the Jagdpanther but the JgPz V gun could not see them).

Overall the replays usually ended up similar to the TV program, German armored surge is stopped and Shermans turn the tide.

We added a Marder III to one replay and it was knocked out by machine gun fire.

CMBO 75mm smoke didn't seem to do much when it was fired at the Jagdpanther.

CMBO is really impressive during combined arms games and seems to agree well with TV combat results.

[Fionn]

" CMBO ... seems to agree well with TV combat results. "

Sounds like the most damning indictment of a game system I've ever heard .

[zukkov]

Originally posted by Fionn:

" CMBO ... seems to agree well with TV combat results. "

Sounds like the most damning indictment of a game system I've ever heard .

yah, but at least it was a really good tv show! lol

[Michael Dorosh]

The drawback with the TV show was that the terrain was so compressed - obviously for cinematography reasons. Look at the documentary WE STAND ALONE TOGETHER, and the part where the real Guarnere is walking in the woods near Foy. Look how far away Foy is from their positions, then compare to the TV representation of the same terrain.

Would be interesting to see a real terrain map of the Foy area, or a scenario based on the "real" battle of Foy, not the TV one. I downloaded one from the Depot but never tried playing it.

[Herr Kruger]

The beaches in SPR always seemed the same way to me... so close up in the movie but then when I see some footage the beach seems so much longer and the bluffs/hills/whatever taller and German positions hard to make out....

What footage of the real Guarnere were you referring to? Sounds interesting.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Herr Kruger:

The beaches in SPR always seemed the same way to me... so close up in the movie but then when I see some footage the beach seems so much longer and the bluffs/hills/whatever taller and German positions hard to make out....

What footage of the real Guarnere were you referring to? Sounds interesting.

You are exactly right about SPR; the beaches really were compressed in that one too.

There was a documentary called WE STAND ALONE TOGETHER released after BoB, or run immediately afterwards - there was an interview with Guarnere.

He has his own website, check out http://www.wildbillguarnere.com

[PiggDogg]

Rex,

Here is a real grog comment & I am not, by any means, a real grog. Real grogs please comment. Also, I don't want to be a nit picker, but

In Band Of Brothers attack at Carentan, it seemed that the heavily sloped armor TD that the US zook team took out was a PzIV/70. Am I correct? That vehicle did not look like a mere, plain Jane Stg.

I don't remember seeing a Jadgpanther in that episode, unless the Jadgpanther is a PzIV/70. (request Grog comment here)

Also, wasn't the Jadgpanther built on the PzV chassis and not the PzIV chassis like the PzIV/70.

One has to hand it to Spielberg, he certainly tried and succeeded to make his films visually historical.

Cheers, Richard

[Herr Kruger]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Herr Kruger:

The beaches in SPR always seemed the same way to me... so close up in the movie but then when I see some footage the beach seems so much longer and the bluffs/hills/whatever taller and German positions hard to make out....

What footage of the real Guarnere were you referring to? Sounds interesting.

You are exactly right about SPR; the beaches really were compressed in that one too.

There was a documentary called WE STAND ALONE TOGETHER released after BoB, or run immediately afterwards - there was an interview with Guarnere.

He has his own website, check out http://www.wildbillguarnere.com</font>

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Would be interesting to see a real terrain map of the Foy area, or a scenario based on the "real" battle of Foy, not the TV one. I downloaded one from the Depot but never tried playing it.

Having walked a treeline with foxholes overlooking Foy (although it is impossible to say whether these were 2nd BN foxholes), and having just watched the taped episode again, I would agree that there is a bit more space than there appears to be in the movie. Especially if we assume that the modern treeline is in effect closer to Foy by about 50m (quite likely, the plantation there seems post-war).

What is important is that the foxholes are on a very gentle reverse slope, enabling them to be as close as they were.

Good site here. Makes me think that where Kip, his mate, Peter and me walked were positions of 1st Battalion, not 2nd. We walked west of the highway, close to the German cemetary.

[zukkov]

yes, thanks for the link to wild bill's website! i wrote him a note thanking him for his service. don't know if he knew dad or not, but you never know. it's times like this i'm so goddamn proud to be an american!

[Stoffel]

Hi michael,

If you have Mc Auliffes battle of Foy than you can be sure its a very good and reliable recreation of the area,as well of the forces.

If you want I will play it against you.......

we never played a game so this can be a good opportunity.

Henk

[rexford]

Pigg Dogg wrote:

"In Band Of Brothers attack at Carentan, it seemed that the heavily sloped armor TD that the US zook team took out was a PzIV/70. Am I correct? That vehicle did not look like a mere, plain Jane Stg.

I don't remember seeing a Jadgpanther in that episode, unless the Jadgpanther is a PzIV/70. (request Grog comment here)"

The vehicle knocked out by the bazooka team looked like a StuG, it had the hull top MG and the armor seemed to have several different sloped areas like a StuG.

My recollection was that a Jagdpanther was in the TV show, but I could be wrong. Would appreciate comments on that issue.

In every scenario I played the Jagdpanther was immobilized by a track hit, which made it easy for Shermans to move out of the 88mm covered arc (except the last scenario where the Jagdpanther knocked out all six Shermans).

In the scenario I added a Marder to, a .50 cal machine gun penetrated that 10mm "plate" that protects the crew and knocked out the "tank". Marders are definitely not assault guns, I forgot the Americans had .50 cal MG and paid the price.

[Joe F]

Is it possible to download the scenario, please ad a link if so.

[Watson & Crick]

If the scenario is not online, can you email it to me?

Thanks

[Peter Panzer]

JgPz V

...while i can't speak to the particulars of a television series, i was under the impression the krauts leveraged the overwhelming majority of their available heavy armor against the british/commonwealth forces arrayed north of carentan.

…no doubt, the crackerjack bastards of the 101st certainly meet their share of motivated, well equipped resistance, but i believe it was the scots who drew the short straw when it came to exchanging initial pleasantries with the JgPz V.

…caumont sector, the 6th scots guards are taken to task, losing 14 tanks in a sharp, two minute engagement to an element of the 654th schwere panzerjager abteilung. the 654th was outfitted with, yes, you guessed it, a full compliment of jagdpanther tank destroyers (42).

…there was a second unit, the 559th, which while allotted a far smaller number of vehicles (10) also saw action in normandy. The 654th may have been tied into the savaged remains of the 326th infantry division when they shot up the 6th guards, unfortunately i can not offer additional information on the 559th.

…mind you gentlemen, these tidbits have been briskly cobbled together from a series of websites, most notably, the ubiquitous achtung panzer, thus you may wish to cross reference them with other sources if you are hell-bent on pinning down the whereabouts of our absurdly nasty guest of honor.

…did u.s. forces, airborne or otherwise, encounter “heavy,” german armor in normandy? perhaps in the countryside surrounding mortain (1st ss, 2nd ss, lehr, 116th)? st. lo (lehr)?

[Andreas]

At Bovington, you can listen to a vet who was on the receiving end of the 2-min engagement telling the story. ISTR him saying that his squadron was shot up by only two Jagdpanthers, who after despatching the British tanks added insult to injury by breaking cover and motoring off athwart the British line of advance.

[dalem]

Originally posted by PiggDogg:

Rex,

Here is a real grog comment & I am not, by any means, a real grog. Real grogs please comment. Also, I don't want to be a nit picker, but

In Band Of Brothers attack at Carentan, it seemed that the heavily sloped armor TD that the US zook team took out was a PzIV/70. Am I correct? That vehicle did not look like a mere, plain Jane Stg.

The AFV taken out by the front lower armor bazooka hit is clearly dressed up as a StuG of some sort - which kind I can't tell. But it's supposed to be a StuG. Nice job, too.

I don't remember seeing a Jadgpanther in that episode, unless the Jadgpanther is a PzIV/70. (request Grog comment here)

There is a JagdPanther in the episode. I believe the last shot of it has it reversing out of the Sherman fire under a smoke screen, but I may be confusing it with a different AFV. something lays smoke and backs off.

Also, wasn't the Jadgpanther built on the PzV chassis and not the PzIV chassis like the PzIV/70.

Yup.

-dale

[ June 09, 2002, 01:55 PM: Message edited by: dalem ]

[Peter Panzer]

andreas and others interested:

…yes, it would seem a small number of JgPz V’s took part in the action (2-3?) – initially engaging commonwealth armor at range and then, as your fortuitous docent described, began to advance under the cover of an additional, unseen tank destroyer.

…apparently two of the JgPz V’s suffered track damage during the charge and subsequent exchange of fire.

…i suspect the poor clods in the churchills weren’t able to locate the source of the incoming rounds until the german crews broke cover from their wooded position (“Bois du Homme”).

…i reckon there are several of you fellas who can illustrate this engagement in minute detail if the interest warrants.

…is the “band of brothers” series available as a dvd rental in the united states?

[platoon_incap_monkey]

Hi

I personally didnt like BoB.The effects and everything was cool but i dont like this "Hollywood" hero stuff.

In one episode the US is attacking an artillery position and knock out the german defenders with ease.

THEN the germans attack the US that has taken the old german positions BUT NOW the germans cant hit them..At one point an american is sitting in a tree top getting sprayed by an MG-42 and ofcourse the 42 dont hit..How can it possibly shoot trough leaves?..heheheeh!

stuff like this makes me angry..and have you noticed the 1 half a second delay on the grenades when they throw them in windows?

Im not usually a complainer and i know it is a tv series but anyway..I dont think it was THAT easy for the US..Just look when they take carentan in another episode..hmmmm...Who made that defense?..Dumbo?

In that episode you see german Paratroopers run away like old volksgrenadiers.

I would apreciate if Hollywood ONCE good make an truly and more honest story of the war.

Thanx

[abuhabib]

Is it possible to download the scenario, please ad a link if so.

--------------------

Rgs Joe F.

&

If the scenario is not online, can you email it to me?

yes, & to me, too! thank u.

[dalem]

Originally posted by platoon_incap_monkey:

Hi

I personally didnt like BoB.The effects and everything was cool but i dont like this "Hollywood" hero stuff.

In one episode the US is attacking an artillery position and knock out the german defenders with ease.

THEN the germans attack the US that has taken the old german positions BUT NOW the germans cant hit them..At one point an american is sitting in a tree top getting sprayed by an MG-42 and ofcourse the 42 dont hit..How can it possibly shoot trough leaves?..heheheeh!

stuff like this makes me angry..and have you noticed the 1 half a second delay on the grenades when they throw them in windows?

Im not usually a complainer and i know it is a tv series but anyway..I dont think it was THAT easy for the US..Just look when they take carentan in another episode..hmmmm...Who made that defense?..Dumbo?

In that episode you see german Paratroopers run away like old volksgrenadiers.

I would apreciate if Hollywood ONCE good make an truly and more honest story of the war.

Thanx

Next time read the book. That attack on the artillery battery was pretty true to the book, which was taken from personal interviews. How accurate the interviewees memories were 45 years after the fact, or whatever, I can't say.

It is a mistake to confuse entertainment trying to be as accurate as possible, with history.

It is not Hollywood's business to make any of their movies "truly and honest" really, when you think about it.

-dale

[Pzman]

Originally posted by PiggDogg:

Rex,

Here is a real grog comment & I am not, by any means, a real grog. Real grogs please comment. Also, I don't want to be a nit picker, but

In Band Of Brothers attack at Carentan, it seemed that the heavily sloped armor TD that the US zook team took out was a PzIV/70. Am I correct? That vehicle did not look like a mere, plain Jane Stg.

I don't remember seeing a Jadgpanther in that episode, unless the Jadgpanther is a PzIV/70. (request Grog comment here)

Also, wasn't the Jadgpanther built on the PzV chassis and not the PzIV chassis like the PzIV/70.

One has to hand it to Spielberg, he certainly tried and succeeded to make his films visually historical.

Cheers, Richard

It very much was a StuG IIIG or more accurately a StuG IV, that was being modeled in the show. The StuG in CM leaves some of the stuff the StuG has out, as it does for many of the tanks it models. I am very sure because I have made a 1/32 scale model of one, and at first I didn't even think it was a StuG, even though it said it was. Then I saw film of StuGs (B&W) and then I knew. I clearly remember the Jagdpanther in the episode. And IIRC there were never any scenes with Jagdpanzer IV's in them IV/70's or other wise.

[ June 12, 2002, 01:30 AM: Message edited by: Panzerman ]

[rexford]

Originally posted by abuhabib:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Is it possible to download the scenario, please ad a link if so.

--------------------

Rgs Joe F.

&

If the scenario is not online, can you email it to me?

yes, & to me, too! thank u. </font>

[WWB]

You email a cm scenario the same way you email a file of any sort.

Regarding scenarios covering a part of Band of Brothers, I recommend Frankos excellent Hello 2nd Armored, which covers the battle you are talking about. It is avaliable at both the links in my signature.

WWB

[bboyle]

Originally posted by platoon_incap_monkey:

Hi

I personally didnt like BoB.The effects and everything was cool but i dont like this "Hollywood" hero stuff.

In one episode the US is attacking an artillery position and knock out the german defenders with ease.

THEN the germans attack the US that has taken the old german positions BUT NOW the germans cant hit them..At one point an american is sitting in a tree top getting sprayed by an MG-42 and ofcourse the 42 dont hit..How can it possibly shoot trough leaves?..heheheeh!

stuff like this makes me angry..and have you noticed the 1 half a second delay on the grenades when they throw them in windows?

Im not usually a complainer and i know it is a tv series but anyway..I dont think it was THAT easy for the US..Just look when they take carentan in another episode..hmmmm...Who made that defense?..Dumbo?

In that episode you see german Paratroopers run away like old volksgrenadiers.

I would apreciate if Hollywood ONCE good make an truly and more honest story of the war.

Thanx

Oops...hit the wrong button. Actually, if your read the vet's recollections of the event they point out constantly that they did things that morning that were extremely foolhardy that they would never, ever have done even a day or two later. And FWIR, the actions of the unit in the movie were based very closely on what actually happened. In short, it certainly wasn't a typical action with typical losses but maybe that's why Winters was a Major at the end of the war, eh?

[ June 12, 2002, 12:01 PM: Message edited by: bboyle ]