OGSF Posted July 8, 2002 Share Posted July 8, 2002 The 1962 Steve McQueen movie "Hell is for Heros" was on T.V. yesterday (in the States) and the final ten minutes depicted a U.S. assault against a German pillbox. In order to get to the pillbox, the G.I.s' had to cross a mine field. The C.O. called back to the mortar teams via walkie-talkie and said "Blast us a path through that minefield, and make it a wide one!". So they did. I have never read any accounts of this being a valid tactic in the field. The Brits certainly used sappers and / or flail tanks to clear a path through mine fields, and this was invariably done as part of the preparation prior to an actual set-piece attack, as far as I know. It sort of makes sense to use mortars or artillery to clear minefields, even "local" ones during an attack. But never having seen an account of this tactic being used outside of Hollywood, I wonder if it was? Artillery barrages do not seem to have any effect on mine fields in CM:BO! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zukkov Posted July 8, 2002 Share Posted July 8, 2002 you're right, arty has no "impact"(so to speak) on minefields in cmbo, which tends to suggest that it was not a common tactic. i personally don't know enough about clearing minefields to know whether or not it would be effective. for that matter, why couldn't some soldiers start tossing grenades and clear a path? anyway, the only way in cmbo is with engies, so don't lose em! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted July 8, 2002 Share Posted July 8, 2002 Historically, naval artillery (mostly 5" rockets) were used to try to clear mines on the Normandy beaches. I can't vouch for how successful they were. Offhand, I can't recall any other times clearing mines with arty was done. ISTR that at various times aircraft bombs were used for that purpose, but this may have been mainly in the Pacific. I think the problem is that it would take a lot of shells of medium caliber or above to do much of a job. I really doubt that mortars could accomplish much, especially in a hurry. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Wacky Posted July 8, 2002 Share Posted July 8, 2002 Also, when McQueen was crawling through the field at night with the guy who had the flamethrower, the torch guy barely touches a mine and it goes off. I laughed when I saw that, I mean the wind could have set it off as light as he touched it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairbairn-Sykes Posted July 8, 2002 Share Posted July 8, 2002 James Coburn rocks! And, he can rig a jeep to sound clanky enough to fool the Jerries into thinking its a Sherman! I'd love to see the CMBO 'sound contact marker' on that one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boo Radley Posted July 8, 2002 Share Posted July 8, 2002 Actually, I thought the silouhette in the identification book the Germans pointed at when they heard Coburn's souped up jeep looked like a Stuart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zukkov Posted July 8, 2002 Share Posted July 8, 2002 but the best part was bob newhart on the field phone. hey, maybe he should've made a career doing that. lol... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foobar Posted July 8, 2002 Share Posted July 8, 2002 I dont know if you all noticed this, but when Steve McQueen was running back, after tossing the satchel charge for the first time, he got shot in the left shoulder blade.. As he rolled over, he was holding his solar plexus, and blood was spurting out. The only way that shot could have traveled at that angle is from the luftwaffe strafing him. I heard no luftwaffe! Please fix or do somefink! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zukkov Posted July 8, 2002 Share Posted July 8, 2002 hey foobar, haven't you heard of the magic bullet?? lol.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted July 8, 2002 Share Posted July 8, 2002 Originally posted by zukkov: but the best part was bob newhart on the field phone. hey, maybe he should've made a career doing that. lol...I wonder how many people here will get your reference....it's a good one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairbairn-Sykes Posted July 8, 2002 Share Posted July 8, 2002 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by zukkov: but the best part was bob newhart on the field phone. hey, maybe he should've made a career doing that. lol...I wonder how many people here will get your reference....it's a good one!</font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
athkatla Posted July 8, 2002 Share Posted July 8, 2002 Originally posted by zukkov: hey foobar, haven't you heard of the magic bullet?? lol..Currently reading Reasonable Doubt by Henry Hurt on that very subject Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boo Radley Posted July 8, 2002 Share Posted July 8, 2002 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by zukkov: but the best part was bob newhart on the field phone. hey, maybe he should've made a career doing that. lol...I wonder how many people here will get your reference....it's a good one!</font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave H Posted July 8, 2002 Share Posted July 8, 2002 Originally posted by Boo_Radley: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by zukkov: but the best part was bob newhart on the field phone. hey, maybe he should've made a career doing that. lol...I wonder how many people here will get your reference....it's a good one!</font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted July 8, 2002 Share Posted July 8, 2002 Originally posted by *Captain Foobar*: I dont know if you all noticed this, but when Steve McQueen was running back, after tossing the satchel charge for the first time, he got shot in the left shoulder blade.. As he rolled over, he was holding his solar plexus, and blood was spurting out. The only way that shot could have traveled at that angle is from the luftwaffe strafing him. I heard no luftwaffe! Please fix or do somefink!Sounds like script continuity was a little weak in this flick. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted July 8, 2002 Share Posted July 8, 2002 Originally posted by Dave H: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Boo_Radley: As we were watching the film, my wife asked me if he originated the phone business on the movie, or if he'd already had it in his act. I didn't have a clue.Definitely was a major part of his act. On old TV variety shows (Ed Sullivan era) that was his act, talking on the telephone. In fact, even in both of his TV series he would always spend some time talking on the telephone in every show.</font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grisha Posted July 8, 2002 Share Posted July 8, 2002 Within the Red Army artillery was used to 'clear' minefields, but anything smaller than 122mm was deemed ineffective and 152mm or larger was preferred. Still, it wasn't considered totally effective and engineer assets were necessary nonetheless. [ July 08, 2002, 11:42 AM: Message edited by: Grisha ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boo Radley Posted July 8, 2002 Share Posted July 8, 2002 Originally posted by Michael emrys: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by *Captain Foobar*: I dont know if you all noticed this, but when Steve McQueen was running back, after tossing the satchel charge for the first time, he got shot in the left shoulder blade.. As he rolled over, he was holding his solar plexus, and blood was spurting out. The only way that shot could have traveled at that angle is from the luftwaffe strafing him. I heard no luftwaffe! Please fix or do somefink!Sounds like script continuity was a little weak in this flick. Michael</font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farslayer Posted July 8, 2002 Share Posted July 8, 2002 Originally posted by Boo_Radley: The bullet entered his back, was deflected by the shoulder blade, perhaps ricocheted off a rib or two and exited out his solar plexus! TA-DA!I agree Mr. Radley... Jeez! You'd think that some people never watched CSI, a cool show made cooler by Marg Helgenberger. Don't click if attractive women give you the willies... yeah, that means you Mace... and Harv. [ July 08, 2002, 12:53 PM: Message edited by: Farslayer ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olaf Posted July 9, 2002 Share Posted July 9, 2002 I would try it if my unit had to go through the minefield vs. going around it and, I could not get some combat engineers to do it instead. I would have the mortar crews set the fuze of the rounds so that some explode above the ground while some would blow up just below the surface. The air burst rounds would hopefully get rid of some of trip wires/ booby traps possibly attached to the mines and also detonate some of the mines by activating their pressure fuze. The sub-surface bursts would detonate some of the mines if they landed nearby and also expose unexploded mines so they could be seen. The bigger the mortar rounds the better and artillery would be even more effective. I would then try to get through the minefield by running/ crawling in a path that had the most mortar/artillery round impacts. Keep in mind that mortar and/ or artillery can not make a "path" for infantry to go through as their accuracy is not that surgical. The more rounds the better. I would not tell the mortar platoon/ section your target as they might not shoot the mission since no enemy would be engaged. One a lighter note, I once watched a guy step on a practice antipersonnel mine that would blow the mine out of the ground but not explode the mine itself. The delay on these mines were such that you knew when you stepped on it and had enough time to back off before the mine shot into the air. He stepped on one, looked down and froze. The mine impacted his forehead as the 3 prong fuze ripped some of his skull off. The last time I saw him, he was able to function except that he had suffered some brain damage. I also walked through a practice minefield that I did not know was set up without activating any mines. It made me feel pretty good but the engineers who had installed it were not happy :cool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted July 9, 2002 Share Posted July 9, 2002 The British ran several experiments before and during WWII to see if artillery was effective against mines and wire. The results were (para-phrasing): a) sort of, it takes ages to get any appreciable effect, c) it takes a completely inordinate amount of ammo to have any appreciable effect, and d) really, its a waste of time. Use smoke and send in the engineers. CMBOs modelling of this is spot on. Incidentally - minefields typically aren't sown very densly, which is one of the reasons it takes so much arty fire to be effective. So moving across one unharmed is playing the odds, but certainly feasible. IIRC an experiment was done out here a few years ago in which the engineers laid a practice minefield the size of a rugby field according to the manual, and then got an infantry battalion to walk, shoulder to shoulder, up and back across the field. IIRC, only half-a-dozen or so mines were triggered. Still, when faced with an unknown minefield, I would certainly hesitate, which is of course the point. Hence the old maxim "an obstacle noty covered by fire isn't an obstacle" - it's not the minefield that is supposed to do the killing, but the fire covering it on bunched up enemy forces. Regards JonS [ July 09, 2002, 04:09 AM: Message edited by: JonS ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foobar Posted July 9, 2002 Share Posted July 9, 2002 Originally Posted by that Grapes of Wrath Character: Or if I'm allowed to speculated wildly (please, please, purrty please), the bullet entered his back, was deflected by the shoulder blade, perhaps ricocheted off a rib or two and exited out his solar plexus! TA-DA!There is a 99% that he was shot by the pillbox, and in that case, I just can't see an MG 34/42 round riccocheting off the bone, it should have shattered it, and lodged there. I will not let this statement stand. Do you have any reason to believe that it was not the bunker firing? I demand a response! Just to play devil's advocate, does anyone have penetration data on the Kar98 or MP44 on a Steve McQueen, wearing Rifle 45 fatigues at 20 meters? I belive the angle was about 24% striking the upper rear torso. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zukkov Posted July 9, 2002 Share Posted July 9, 2002 i heard the russians would have soldiers link arms and march across a minefield to clear it. then again, i also heard the the russian paratroopers didn't use chutes. god bless those athiests! lol.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted July 9, 2002 Share Posted July 9, 2002 Originally posted by zukkov: ...i also heard the the russian paratroopers didn't use chutes.I heard that too. The idea was to jump from a low-flying airplane into deep snow. It was tried as an experiment, but so many troopers were injured that it was thought best to just forget the whole thing. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boo Radley Posted July 9, 2002 Share Posted July 9, 2002 Originally posted by *Captain Foobar*: Originally Posted by that Grapes of Wrath Character: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Or if I'm allowed to speculated wildly (please, please, purrty please), the bullet entered his back, was deflected by the shoulder blade, perhaps ricocheted off a rib or two and exited out his solar plexus! TA-DA!There is a 99% that he was shot by the pillbox, and in that case, I just can't see an MG 34/42 round riccocheting off the bone, it should have shattered it, and lodged there. I will not let this statement stand. Do you have any reason to believe that it was not the bunker firing? I demand a response! Just to play devil's advocate, does anyone have penetration data on the Kar98 or MP44 on a Steve McQueen, wearing Rifle 45 fatigues at 20 meters? I belive the angle was about 24% striking the upper rear torso.</font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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