Best Axis tank for the buck in CM

[Commissar]

Originally posted by Agua Perdido:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Maple Tree:

The Hetzers downfall is it has no turret, therefore, it responds slowly as the whole tank must turn.

In a recent QB ME, I was performing a perfectly gamey "Hellcat rush" to get behind an opponent who'd left his flanks covered by a Hetzer. It couldn't rotate fast enough to draw a bead on the speeding M18 (which was to its left, the "bad" side for traversing the gun). The 'Cat slewed its turret 90 degrees and drilled it through the glacis at 200m in one shot without even slowing down. Don't try this at home, kids!

Moral of the story: The Hellcat is the best Axis tank for the buck in CM

Agua Perdido

[Edited because editing is the best Axis tank for the buck in CM.]</font>

[Redwolf]

Actually the Hellcat gets toasted by the 20mm, which everyone has in their backyard. And the point about the AA guns is the extreme hit probability. Since that includes Lynx, 234/1 and 250/9, you are guaranteed to be screwed on almost all battlefield when trying to flank someone in a hellcat.

[Commissar]

Originally posted by redwolf:

Actually the Hellcat gets toasted by the 20mm, which everyone has in their backyard. And the point about the AA guns is the extreme hit probability. Since that includes Lynx, 234/1 and 250/9, you are guaranteed to be screwed on almost all battlefield when trying to flank someone in a hellcat.

Even worse, however I think I would still use the 37mm to handle the better armored light tanks. I think for some of them the 20mm has a tougher time knocking them out while the 37mm still has the punch to take these guys out too. The 20mm can still do a good job of immobilzing or damaging guns, greatly reducing a tank's usefulness.

[Silvio Manuel]

Originally posted by flamingknives:

The IVJ s have slow turrets?

I can't say that I noticed, but then the AI use of armour is so laughable that it's rarely an issue

Yes, they do. The slow turret and the NGW are the only big differences b/w it and the -IVH. I've heard that in RL the -IVJ had face hardened armor that gave better protection, a feature that is supposedly not modeled in CMBO.

[Silvio Manuel]

I like StuGs and StuHs, or Marders platoons teamed w/ HE support. However, I see the Jagdpanzer IV (L/48) as being a great value. It has great armor, the same good gun as the PaK40 and Marders, high ammo load, avg. speed, and it doesn't suffer from the high ground pressure of the IV/70.

[Warmaker]

Well, I generally prefer the Cats, esp. the Tiger but if I have to be stingy with my points I heavily lean towards either the Jagdpanzer IV or the Panzer IV (not the PzKpfw IV!). If you're REALLY dying for decently protected armor, the Hetzer if used properly can pay off big time. The slow ROF is a liability, so just be careful about that.

Now, on the higher scale in points in regards to the Big Cats, I love the Tiger IE. With a regular crew it costs roughly 177pts but I usually fit a Tiger with Vet crews. The 88 will kill anything and the thick armor is good but has it's weakness against 76mm/17pdrs. The thicker side armor works well against 'zooks/PIATS, IMO.

Tigers work very well in killing tanks. Tigers rampaging against enemy infantry is a sight to behold. 2 MGs and the 88 work wonders. Not to mention the close defense mortars for the brave medal seeking troops.

[Trooper]

Actually, the first tank I ever buy when playing American is the Sherman 105.

I've had one in Elsfdorf take out two Tigers and a King Tiger against a human opponent, and the effect it has against infantry (which, face it, is the most common target you have to deal with) beats the heck out of the 75mm.

Similarly, I rarely play a game as German without a StuH42 or two. I am also as likely to get a MkIVG or Marder over the Hetzer. The Hetzer's slow ROF and lack of ammo can be debilitating.

On the Jagdpanther/Pershing item, a little annecdote:

One game I was playing, I decided to take a Jagdpanther simply because I had never used one before and wanted to see how it did. (If I want an 88, I'll take a Tiger for the turret, or the Nashorn on points). By coincidence, my opponent also decided to do a little experimenting. He bought his first ever Pershing. By complete luck, we both placed our respective experiments on the same flank, which had fairly long fields of fire. I think we engaged at about 600m.

Game starts, and my Panther gets the first salvo off. The second shot is a ricochet, and causes the Pershing to button up. I get a further four shots off before he spots me and turns to engage. All shots ricoched off the hull and turret.

His first shot kills my Jagdpanther just as it gets a final shot off. The 88mm shell actually manages to kill the Pershing.

We both decided we were never going to get these wastes of points ever again!

NTM

[PiggDogg]

Trooper,

Good story about the Jagdpanther & Pershing. Entertaining and enjoyable.

Also, PzIV/70 & Hetzers are good together with some Stg 42s with that infantry killing 105 as anti infantry support. :cool:

Tigers die too easily from Allied 76s & 17 lbers. However, they do kill all normal Allied vehicles.

PzIVs are near trash. They die way, way too easily even by Allied 37s & 40s from the front. :eek: :eek:

Time to go,

Cheers, Richard

[Warmaker]

Originally posted by PiggDogg:

Tigers die too easily from Allied 76s & 17 lbers. However, they do kill all normal Allied vehicles.

PzIVs are near trash. They die way, way too easily even by Allied 37s & 40s from the front. :eek: :eek:

Actually, I get ALOT of mileage out of my Tiger I's. About a dozen Sherman "soda cans" for every Tiger lost is "even" in my eyes Since I love my Tiger I's so much I take extra care with them. Kind of like how guys baby sit Marders. Of all the Axis armor, I produce the best results with the normally "vulnerable" Tiger I. 2nd place for me are Panthers while the Jagdpanzer IV comes a respectable 3rd place.

However, I have bad luck with Jagdpanthers and King Tigers at times.

My PzKpfw IVs don't last for me. Probably a bit too reckless with Tigers and Panthers in my mindset for them.

[ February 15, 2002, 04:26 AM: Message edited by: Warmaker ]

[KiwiJoe]

Lang for anti armour work.

Stug's in groups of 2 or 3 (because of the low cost) for all round work.

Hetzers arent that great. Allied artillery/mortars will rip **** outta them. Ive never had a problem taking them out. If your gonna put a plain sherman 75/76 1 on 1 at distance agianst them then of course it will do well.

[manchildstein (ii)]

believe it or not i like the psw 234/3 as 'most bang for the buck.'

[Blenheim]

Am I the only with awesome Nashorn Skillz?

I love this thinguie. I use it more as a mobile gun than anything else, of course, because it is damm weak; but I've had some incredible lucky streaks with them. I've had up to 6 kills with this babies; I think that my opponent was too surprised to react to that weird animal.

I had the most absurd hit message with one of them, as well. "Weak penetration Spot, knocked out" against a Hellcat, rear shoot... :confused:

[Cooper]

Don't foget the Hetzer it a terrible inf. support weapon. I like to use my armor to gain "armor superiority" on the battlefield. Then after enemy armor has been elminated, roll my surviving tanks into fire positions that enable my inf. to advance and destroy the enemy.

While the Hetzer is great in helping you achieve the superiority thier HE loadout is extremly low and can't blast enemy inf. out of positions as say a stug,panther, ect.

Also, this low HE load also hurt the performance of the hezter if it engages any sort of atg.

[Silvio Manuel]

Originally posted by manchildstein II:

believe it or not i like the psw 234/3 as 'most bang for the buck.'

I like them too. They have blazing speed on roads, and the extra armor is nice compared to the SPW 251/9 HT. Even so, I usually buy the 251/9, since it tends to have 40-45 HE shells, and the 234/3 has maybe 30-35.

The 251/9's HE loadout is the highest for Axis forces along w/ the Panzer IV (40-45)...neither of which can match the Tiger's 40-45 88mm HE shells, of course, or the StuH's 25'ish 105mm HE, if you can spare Armor pts. for them.

[MikeyD]

I've killed too many Hetzers with .50 cal into the sides to consider them an uberweapon.

I agree with the comment above that if you treat your Tiger as carefully as a Marder you can get excellent use out of it. 88mm fired into infantry does just what you want it to. And Tigers scare off Shermans. They run like scared rabbits.

The trouble with the big cats is mostly psychological. When we get our hands on a Panther we all do sloppy things you really shouldn't do on a battlefield. Relying too much on the armor.

[gredeker]

Originally posted by Silvio Manuel:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by manchildstein II:

believe it or not i like the psw 234/3 as 'most bang for the buck.'

I like them too. They have blazing speed on roads, and the extra armor is nice compared to the SPW 251/9 HT. Even so, I usually buy the 251/9, since it tends to have 40-45 HE shells, and the 234/3 has maybe 30-35.

The 251/9's HE loadout is the highest for Axis forces along w/ the Panzer IV (40-45)...neither of which can match the Tiger's 40-45 88mm HE shells, of course, or the StuH's 25'ish 105mm HE, if you can spare Armor pts. for them.</font>

[flamingknives]

What wrong with the poor old PzIV?

Granted it's bloody annoying when they get KO'd by a 37mm gun, but at long range I'd prefer them to almost all Shermans and they're not such 'big bomb magnets' as the cats.

If you rely on armour to protect you from enemy fire, then you're not using your tanks as well as you might. Use terrain to enable several of your tanks to engage enemy armour one at a time, and your tanks become much more valuable.

PzIVs are only really up against it when facing pershings, Jumbos and Churchills. It can dance round the churchill (what can't?) and you should bump into too many Ami supertanks

[Silvio Manuel]

Originally posted by flamingknives:

What wrong with the poor old PzIV?

Granted it's bloody annoying when they get KO'd by a 37mm gun, but at long range I'd prefer them to almost all Shermans and they're not such 'big bomb magnets' as the cats.

I like the PzIV's quite a bit...who couldn't love the large ammo load, medium turret, and 2 MGs.

As for the 37/40mm threat...its not a problem if you can manage to keep them 500+ meters from those pop guns.

[apex]

And keeping them 800 meters away from vanilla Shermans is even better

apex

[SGT_Gold]

I'd answer this one in two parts.

Static

Any SP without a turretr Hetzer or Stug. As long as you can plan your fields of fire you won't get flanked unless your opponent really works on it.

Manuver

PZ IV in the front, Panther in overwatch. Once you open the range up over 500m, the Panther is very hard to kill from the front. PZ IV's carry a large enough HE load that if they out advance their infantry they stand a chance of staying alive.

Gamey

Any King or Super thing.

[Warmaker]

Good points taken about the German TDs. Just don't rely on them for anti-infantry work due to their small HE shell and MG ammo loadouts. The Hetzers, Panzer IV/70, etc. were meant for one thing: Killing tanks.

If you really want to have a cheap, all around, AFV that can do it all then you need to look into the normal tanks like the PzKpfw IV and the Big Cats.

For the German TDs though, the Jagdtiger and its killer 128mm gun is quite nasty against infantry. Yeah, on average it carries about 11-14 HE rounds but each one of those mean alot of hurt on infantry. Conscripts will be running on top of water from those blasts.

[Caesar]

Love the Hetzer as a cheap way of dealing with allied armour. Sides and top are a bit thin though. Any mortar bigger than 60mm will go through that tinfoil top armour. I always felt a bit gamey using them - they just seemed to give so much tank killing ability for their cost. How common were they? I suppose they are cheap because they are so useless against infantry.

Either the StuH or the Wespe for infantry support. I love any thing with a 105 (or 95 if british) Just watch those infantry bail out of buildings when those babies start pounding them. At ~50 pts the Wespe gives you a fast moving artillery piece with plenty of blast power. Pays to keep them moving around a lot though as mortars can take them out (I lost one to a 2inch mortar once)

The Panther or Tiger would be my first choice as a tank. The Tiger is better against infantry - the Panther is better against tanks. If I am short of armour points I go for the 234/1 or 234/3 to give me a bit better infantry support, fast, plenty of ammo and excellent effect.

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Caesar:

[QB]Love the Hetzer [...] How common were they? I suppose they are cheap because they are so useless against infantry.

They were very common the the last months of the year. More than 2500 built and all of them late in the war. Other vehicles with a production of 2500 or more has been used up by then, but the Hetzers were all fresh. For example, there have never been as many Marders built as Hetzers to start from, and they were spreaded over the years so that almost none were left in the CMBO timeframe. So in this case the user of the thin crappy vehicle (Marder) is less realistic than the user of the tough Hetzer.

However, it should be noted that the Hetzers "late" status is so late that it shouldn't be very common in the first CMBO months. Also I'm not sure how many of them were going to the eastern front. The West saw a large number of real tanks in good-equipped tank divisions, but the West's infantry divisions were undersupplied with everything but towed PaK and Flak.

As for price, I think that the BTS price formular is too good in computing the value that the vehicle had in real life. On a real battlefield, the thin sides would be very bad, but on a CMBO battlefield with its hard edges you usually expose only one side, of generally the sides are only half as exposed on average. Thus whatever this discount for the thin sides was, the discount should probably be halfed taking the CMBO game engine restrictions into account.

[The Vyrdolak]

If you're going for PzIVs, I'd choose the J model. It has that lovely grenade launcher thing which really messes up marauding infantry.

It also has a slow turret. I almost never take

Mk IVs anymore, I usually take roughly 1/2 Panthers/Tiger Is and half Stugs.

[CombinedArms]

A more general point is that the Axis has a lot of good bargains in armor that suit a wide range of individual styles and approaches and that may be adapted to attack or defense and to various terrains. I must admit I like the Hetzer on defense, esp. if expecting an armored attack from US forces.

On the Allied side, the US has almost no bargains of any kind. Imagine having a similarly detailed discussion about US armor bargains....

The Brits, on the other had, have some really interesting options.