DaveN Posted February 11, 2002 Share Posted February 11, 2002 Its the little Hetzer..its cheap with a respectable gun and excellent slope on frontal armor..Did numerous tests today on a flat treeless map (500 to 700 yards)against Sherman Jumbo 76mm gun(156 frontal armor), Sherman Jumbo 75mm gun(156 frontal armor), the other various regular Shermans, a Pershing..all tests where done with the tanks facing each other...On the plain Shermans both with the 76mm and 75mm gun were no match for the Hezter, they were killed every time with no damage to Hezter with numerous shells bouncing off..the 76 did cause Armor flaking but their frontal armor was so thin that the Hetzers gun finished them off in a couple of hits...The Sherman Jumbo with the 75mm gun just bounced shells off the Hetzer also but the Hetzer bounced every shell of the Jumbo too, ended with each running out of ammo..the Sherman jumbo with the 76mm gun bounced numerous shells off the Hetzer and the Hetzer did like-wise but after like 8 ricohets(some with armor flaking) the Hetzer bought the farm..no armor flaking observed on Jumbo..Now the Pershing blew my little Hetzer up every time with one hit but when I did manage to get a hit(before blowing up)I knocked out the Pershing most of the time..I would recommend 2 Hetzers on a Pershing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveN Posted February 11, 2002 Author Share Posted February 11, 2002 Forgot to add that I also tested the JagPanther...all Shermans Jumbos or otherwise were no match for this beast..the Pershings however killed the JagPanther every time with one hit(no ricochets)but if I hit the regular Pershing first I was able to take it out..the Super Pershing was another story, that sucker has some thick frontal armor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PiggDogg Posted February 11, 2002 Share Posted February 11, 2002 Dave, Good info. Thanks. You might try PzIV/70s in similar tests. The 70s should do better, but they may not have the same bang for the buck. This is now your new task & job. Cheers, Richard :cool: :cool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medlinke Posted February 11, 2002 Share Posted February 11, 2002 It's nice to see someone who's testing these tanks outs to see this kind of "value" ratings however. Let me point out a few things I noticed. 1. You tested out tanks against a tank that most German tanks are unlikely to face in battle. Certainly they may, and in that circumstance, your study, which is essentially answering the question, "How few points can I spend and still take out an allied Juggernaut?" 2. You don't define a role for this study. What were you looking to find out? What German armor can go toe to toe with an allied heavy tank? If so, that is a lab condition, and not something that is likely to be seen on a battlefield (at least not intentionally). 3. What categories are you using to judge "bang for your buck?" Does it favor play style and experience? Think of things like turret speed, or in the Hetzer's case, rotation speed. If a Hetzer is passing Stuart going east while the Hetzer continues west...who will win? Considering that the Hetzer has to stop and THEN aim and fire while the Stuart can stop turn it's turret and hull at the same time... So... I liked that you did the work on this study it probably took a while to complete I don't see a ton of these posts going up. However, consider the application of your findings when designing the study. Especially consider the research question and categories that you will be evaluating during the study. Thanks for the post, and I hope something in my post will help you out! Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveN Posted February 11, 2002 Author Share Posted February 11, 2002 I mainly did these tests for my style of playing against the AI..I'm not worried about side hits or if the turret turns too slow..I just want alot of effective armor for the least amount of points..Basically I just plant 10-15 Hetzers on hills and blast all the enemy armor off the face of the map before they move 2 feet, then I putter on down and mop things up..If its a late war battle I might add a couple of Kingtigers or JagTigers for those pesky Pershings.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted February 11, 2002 Share Posted February 11, 2002 You're right, those hetzers are evil. Even my beloved 17 pdrs bounce off the front upper hull. The lower hull is easy, a normal 75 will go through that, but if they're hull down, forget it and go round. Or hope they run out of ammo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Oberst Posted February 11, 2002 Share Posted February 11, 2002 Originally posted by DaveN: Basically I just plant 10-15 Hetzers on hills and blast all the enemy armor off the face of the map before they move 2 feet, then I putter on down and mop things up..I'm going to asume that you play against the AI alot, or almost exclusively. Or that you play with little or no tree cover. 10-15 Hetzers?!? Parked on the hilltops?!? Any opponent who stages his armor in the open at initial placement deserves to be blasted I guess, but you really need to vary your games more... Those Hetzers on hilltops are ideal candidates for a good smoking, or some medium-heavy mortar rounds through the roof. How well would your vaunted 10-15 Hetzers do against a largely infantry force in the same point range? IIRC, their HE is pretty lame. There are alot of very good players (not me btw) who would love to run that against you. Best-bang-for-the-buck depends on the mission to be performed. I would not choose Hetzers on the attack. I would probably pick a few on defense. Meeting engagements, it depends on what else I choose, but I would put them in the unlikely category. [ February 11, 2002, 03:31 PM: Message edited by: Herr Oberst ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar Posted February 11, 2002 Share Posted February 11, 2002 The Hetzer rocks. That little SOB has helped me cream so many Allied tanks it's not funny. It's hilarious watching this little thing constantly shrug off shot after shot as Allied rounds just deflect harmlessly way. I have to agree with the other poster that said the HE ability is not that great. I don't think the little Hetzer carrys all that many HE rounds, but PzIV can carry a lot so if pesky Allied leg units with AT capability start to get in too close, the PzIV can do a pretty good job of hitting them with a good number HE rounds (of course you still need proper infantry support to prevent the PzIV from getting creamed with a bazooka hit). For heavier Allied tanks like the Pershing, the Hetzer probably won't be of much use if you are trying for a frontal pentration. You'll need something like the aforementioned PzIV/70 or better to do that. However, the Hetzer can force the Pershings and the like to engage while you use the heavier cannon to take it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HVAP Posted February 11, 2002 Share Posted February 11, 2002 Being on the opposite end of those Hetzers as a American player I can attest to their effectivness. However I now just identify the Hetzer with infantry back off and drive my Hellcats behind it with a platoon and zook riding and kill the Hetzer, all in the approach, when my Axis friend first deployed them they were god but now they're not much to me, all have different bangs for the buck but for what Ive faced nothing is more annoying than the panther lousy sloped armor! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted February 12, 2002 Share Posted February 12, 2002 Hey, come on guys. A tank purchase discussion without any kind of flames, either against other people's opinions or towards CMBO's pricing system? No? OK, then. What about a discussion of tanks you purchase in one situation, but not in another? For example, I think the Panther is quite nice against the Americans, but against the British it is too vulnerable to 17pdr fire. Likewise, I kinda like the Axis halftracks, but against the Americans they die to .50cal fire too easily. Generally I think against the British it is often preferrable to present the cheaper fast units in larger numbers, while games against the Americans can win from fielding tough units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Chef Sakai Posted February 12, 2002 Share Posted February 12, 2002 My choice would be the PanzerIVH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conscript Bagger Posted February 12, 2002 Share Posted February 12, 2002 Originally posted by redwolf: For example, I think the Panther is quite nice against the Americans, but against the British it is too vulnerable to 17pdr fire. That's true, although if you're playing an opponent who's a fiend for accurate OBs, you can figure that he'll have an agreeably low proportion of Fireflies on the field - once you destroy them, you're back to facing 75/76mm guns. And a Panther is a nice thing to have when the Churchills are shrugging off everything else you throw at them. When Challengers and Comets start appearing, though, all bets are off... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jshandorf Posted February 12, 2002 Share Posted February 12, 2002 I like the StUGs over the PzIVs. The PzIVs have that really weak front turret armor which makes it vulnerable to the the 37mm gun. The StUGs can shake off the 37mm alot better. Plus the gun and the ammo loadout are basically the same and the STuGs are about 22 points cheaper. Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illo Posted February 12, 2002 Share Posted February 12, 2002 Marder 2 is great..it just doesnt have enough ammo. Gun traverse is really wide so it usually gets off first shot. I ended many battles with Marders getting over 5 tank kills. I rarely get such high numbers with PzKpfw-IV. It's good to buy PSW-234/1 to protect marders from enemy armored cars and halftracks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maple Tree Posted February 12, 2002 Share Posted February 12, 2002 Originally posted by DaveN: Its the little Hetzer..its cheap with a respectable gun and excellent slope on frontal armor...The Hetzers downfall is it has no turret, therefore, it responds slowly as the whole tank must turn. It is best used behind the lines on a hill as support. They are nice and cheap to buy though There is a very nice web page on Hetzers here: http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/1933/ Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted February 12, 2002 Share Posted February 12, 2002 If you're going for PzIVs, I'd choose the J model. It has that lovely grenade launcher thing which really messes up marauding infantry. Plus, a PzIV has almost twice the 75mm ammunition that a Stug does, a turret and a reasonable amount of MG ammo. If I want decent infantry HE support, I'll take a Stuh 42, any other Infantry support and it's PzIVJs all the way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agua Perdido Posted February 13, 2002 Share Posted February 13, 2002 Originally posted by Maple Tree: The Hetzers downfall is it has no turret, therefore, it responds slowly as the whole tank must turn.In a recent QB ME, I was performing a perfectly gamey "Hellcat rush" to get behind an opponent who'd left his flanks covered by a Hetzer. It couldn't rotate fast enough to draw a bead on the speeding M18 (which was to its left, the "bad" side for traversing the gun). The 'Cat slewed its turret 90 degrees and drilled it through the glacis at 200m in one shot without even slowing down. Don't try this at home, kids! Moral of the story: The Hellcat is the best Axis tank for the buck in CM Agua Perdido [Edited because editing is the best Axis tank for the buck in CM.] [ February 12, 2002, 05:58 PM: Message edited by: Agua Perdido ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ligur Posted February 13, 2002 Share Posted February 13, 2002 The Hetzer really is a little devil. I fixed a little meeting engagement for fun against the hapless AI. I drove two of those bugs on the top of a hill overlooking the village I was going to be advancing through with an armored column, and of course ran into Shermans and TD's from the AI force. Other Hetzer lost its gun after scoring three hits and had some 5 shots ricochet off its armor, the next blew up but finished 3 tanks before that and the crew bailed out. For that role, staying behind and shooting armor moving on the other side of that map, very good and cheap. Of course, down in the streets, they would have been toast so I used PZIVs and Panthers for the dirty work. Anyway, the next time I play a QB against a real opponent with the Axis I'll be sure to pick a few unless I'm assaulting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illo Posted February 13, 2002 Share Posted February 13, 2002 I just think Hetzers are too good and cheap. With Marders you get more challenge and you can still stop all allied tanks with skill and bit of luck. I think when using Marders I learn much more then by using Hetzers(sitting on reverse slope with their sides covered by schrecks or terrain preferably.) Well I just think Hetzer is too cheap for good game balance unless opposing side chooses mainly infantry. [ February 12, 2002, 07:01 PM: Message edited by: illo ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvio Manuel Posted February 13, 2002 Share Posted February 13, 2002 Originally posted by Maple Tree: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DaveN: Its the little Hetzer..its cheap with a respectable gun and excellent slope on frontal armor...The Hetzers downfall is it has no turret, therefore, it responds slowly as the whole tank must turn. It is best used behind the lines on a hill as support. </font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvio Manuel Posted February 13, 2002 Share Posted February 13, 2002 Originally posted by jshandorf: I like the StUGs over the PzIVs. The PzIVs have that really weak front turret armor which makes it vulnerable to the the 37mm gun. The StUGs can shake off the 37mm alot better. Plus the gun and the ammo loadout are basically the same and the STuGs are about 22 points cheaper. JeffIMO the disparity in ammo loads b/w the StuG's and PzIV's is a major purchasing point (for me) in comparing the two. Avg. Panzer IVH StuG IIIG StuG IV HE 41 26 34 AP 37 23 24 S 9 5 5 MG 126 24 24 Its most evident w/ PzIV vs. the StuG IIIG (early model). The StuG IV introduces the NGW instead of the smoke discharger, and has significantly more ammo. The StuG IIIG (late) is nice...main gun load b/w the other two StuGs, but double the MG ammo- 48 instead of 24, and it has coaxial, not just the remote flexible of the -IV. Overall I prefer StuGs to PzIV's...I prefer more tanks than more ammo per tank. [ February 13, 2002, 08:53 AM: Message edited by: Silvio Manuel ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvio Manuel Posted February 13, 2002 Share Posted February 13, 2002 Originally posted by flamingknives: If you're going for PzIVs, I'd choose the J model. It has that lovely grenade launcher thing which really messes up marauding infantry. Plus, a PzIV has almost twice the 75mm ammunition that a Stug does, a turret and a reasonable amount of MG ammo. If I want decent infantry HE support, I'll take a Stuh 42, any other Infantry support and it's PzIVJs all the wayI'm surprised that you like the IVJ, since it has a "slow turret," while the IVG and IVH are (along w/ the Lynx -IIRC) the only German tanks that don't have "slow" or "very slow" turrets. The IVJ's slow turret is too much of a 'con' for me, given that you only get the NGW in return. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvio Manuel Posted February 13, 2002 Share Posted February 13, 2002 Originally posted by illo: I just think Hetzers are too good and cheap. With Marders you get more challenge and you can still stop all allied tanks with skill and bit of luck. I think when using Marders I learn much more then by using Hetzers(sitting on reverse slope with their sides covered by schrecks or terrain preferably.)I agree 100%. Using Marder platoons has taught much in terms of *carefully* manuevering tanks. Their low cost also greatly helps one to have a good ratio of # of your guns vs. the # your opponent has in a tank scrap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted February 13, 2002 Share Posted February 13, 2002 The IVJ s have slow turrets? I can't say that I noticed, but then the AI use of armour is so laughable that it's rarely an issue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gen-x87H Posted February 13, 2002 Share Posted February 13, 2002 Well is is hard to say overall. I would say bang for the buck has to be the PZIV(70). Panthers gun, better armor. Just have to protect it a bit. Hetzer is a good tank also. Gen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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