227. Infanteridivision site

[Andreas]

That rare beast, a Website not about an SS Panzerdivision. I did not think there were any.

The 227. Infanteriedivision served in AG North from 10/41. The grandson of Uffz. Naumann, who fell fighting with its Recce detachment in 1942, has created this excellent site (in German - but English speakers can still have a look at the maps, and the pictures). Combat history, copies of a combat report, lots of stuff.

www.id227.de

Uffz.Naumann fought over the same ground that my grandfather fought over. He is buried in Mga. When I mentioned the name Mga to my grandfather at a visit a while back, he said: 'Mga, I know that, Mga is where the Landsers went.' Never truer than in this case, I think.

This is a very well-done, extremely informative (if you speak German), and valuable site, that aims to educate.

[Michael Dorosh]

Andreas, I look forward to seeing the English translation of the site in its entirety at Der Kessel in the weeks to come. Only 14 shooting days til the 22nd, you know.

[Michael Dorosh]

Incidentally, I see they are subtitled Rhineland/Westphalia.

I keep asking on other boards, but maybe you know - is there a listing somewhere that shows the regional affilitations of all the WW II German Divisions? Not many English texts even make reference to this aspect, but I notice in the last 5 years or so it has started to come up.

Feldgrau.com makes no mention of regionality in their divisional listings.

[Andreas]

Don't know a list, Mike, but I also never looked for one. I can tell you that a lot of period texts, or texts by veterans (Haupt being a good example) refer to divisions as e.g. 81. Schlesische Infanteriedivision. The affiliation was kept post-war by having a dedicated memorial to a unit in a place in the particular region (obviously that did not work in teh Eastern parts of the former Reich).

[ParaBellum]

Thx for the link, Andreas. Indead, a nice change from the typical Elite-SS-Fallschirmjäger-Königstiger sites...

My grandfather also served in the Leningrad region in 41/42 with the 4. Gebirgsjägerdivision.

Michael, as far as I know (which isn't much BTW) there isn't a list showing the "Heimatstandorte" for german divisions.

At least I didn't find any...

Sometimes you'll stumble across information regarding this topic, e.g. the 371st Division from "the northern shore of lake constance" (A.Beevor, Stalingrad) or the 'Berlin 3rd Panzer Division', the 'Vienna 2nd Panzer Division'.

I'm sure you know it already but

feldgrau.com is often helpful in these issues.

If anyone knows where to find such information, please post it here.

[ June 08, 2002, 08:58 PM: Message edited by: ParaBellum ]

[Michael Dorosh]

Thanks, Parabellum. I think maybe I'll start a list and as I find bits and pieces I can add to it. Nothing important, just curious. The British Army was big on regional affiliations, but were much more overt about displaying them on their uniforms. There is so much history and tradition re the Germans that I just don't have a clue about because none of it makes it into English references.

[Stormin Norman]

That site is really good, I like the slide show (diashow).

Contrasting the photos from Belgium and Holland to those in Russia.

In one they almost look like they are on holiday. Having picnics, enjoying the beach challet (Sp?)view, etc.

In the other they are mostly just in mud and snow. Still smiling though.

It makes me understand (a little) how after the quick & relatively easy conquests of the low-countries and France, they got into their heads the same was gonna happen against USSR and how wrong that idea was.

norm

[ParaBellum]

Michael I would like to contribute to that, since I havent't found anything like that so far on the net.

I know one or two guys who are currently studying at Bundeswehr universities who are interested in this as well.

'Guess with their help I could hopefully dig something out...

And then I still got some friends in my old batallion who should be able to help me.

Edited 'cause Micheal and Michael are too difficult at 3.30 am...

[ June 08, 2002, 09:34 PM: Message edited by: ParaBellum ]

[Andreas]

Micheal, if you want to do a list, I would be happy to contribute to that. A number of my German language books mention these affiliations. As I said, Werner Haupt, an AG North officer veteran, who has published quite a bit on East Front history (some translated by Schiffer), usually mentions this.

Here is the info in Werner Haupt's pictorial history 'Leningrad Wolchow Kurland 1941-45'

1. PD - Thuringia-Hessia (WK IX Kassel)

6. PD - Rhineland-Westphalia (WK VI Muenster)

8. PD - Berlin (WK III Berlin)

12. PD - - Pommerania (WK II Stettin)

14. PD - Saxonia (WK IV Dresden)

18. PGD - Silesia (WK VIII Breslau)

5. GBD - Bavaria/Austria (WK VII/XIII/XVIII Muenchen/Nuernberg/Salzburg)

1. ID - East Prussia (WK I Koenigsberg)

21. ID - East Prussia (WK I Koenigsberg)

11. ID - East Prussia (WK I Koenigsberg)

12. ID - Pommerania (WK II Stettin)

23. ID - Berlin (WK III Berlin)

24. ID - Silesia (WK IV Dresden)

30. ID - Northern Germany (WK X Hamburg)

32. ID - Pommerania (WK II Stettin)

58. ID - Northern Germany (WK X Hamburg)

61. ID - East Prussia (WK I Koenigsberg)

81. ID - East Prussia (WK I Koenigsberg)

83. ID - Northern Germany (WK X Hamburg)

87. ID - Saxonia (WK IV Dresden)

93. ID - Berlin (WK III Berlin)

96. ID - Lower-Saxonia (WK XI Hannover)

121. ID - East Prussia (WK I Koenigsberg)

122. ID - Pommerania (WK II Stettin)

126. ID - Swabia (WK V Stuttgart)

132. ID - Hessia (WK XII Wiesbaden)

170. ID - Northern Germany (WK X Hamburg)

205. ID - Swabia (WK V Stuttgart)

207. ID - Pommerania (WK II Stettin)

223. ID - Saxonia )WK IV Dresden)

215. ID - Rhineland-Westphalia (WK VI Muenster)

218. ID - Berlin (WK III Berlin)

225. ID - Northern Germany (WK X Hamburg)

227. ID - Rhineland-Westphalia (WK VI Muenster)

250. ID Span. - Spain (WK XIII Nuremberg)

263. ID - Hessia (WK XII Wiesbaden)

290. ID - Northern Germany (WK X Hamburg)

291. ID - East Prussia (WK I Koenigsberg)

329. ID - Rhineland-Westphalia (WK VI Muenster)

331. ID - Vienna (WK XVII Wien) (I don't know which regional affilation that would be in Austria)

[Berlichtingen]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Incidentally, I see they are subtitled Rhineland/Westphalia.

I keep asking on other boards, but maybe you know - is there a listing somewhere that shows the regional affilitations of all the WW II German Divisions? Not many English texts even make reference to this aspect, but I notice in the last 5 years or so it has started to come up.

Feldgrau.com makes no mention of regionality in their divisional listings.

Here ya go

[Gary T]

And I was just going to post that....anyway here are the wehrkreis to region affiliations. I'll add them to that list when I get round to updating my site.

WK I - East Prussia

WK II - Mecklenburg and Pomerania

WK III - Brandenburg and Neumark

WK IV - Saxony and part Thuringia

WK V - Wurttemberg and part of Baden

WK VI - Westphalia and the Rhineland

WK VII - Southern Bavaria

WK VIII - Silesia and Sudetenland

WK IX - Part of Thuringia and Hesse

WK X - Schleswig Holstein and part Hannover

WK XI - Brunswick, Anhalt and part of Hannover

WK XII - Eifel, part of Hesse, Saar, Palatinate, Saar

WK XIII - Northern Bavaria

WK XVII - Upper and Lower Austria

WK XVIII - Styria, Carinthia, Tyrol

WK XX - Danzig, western part of East Prussia

WK XXI - West Poland

Note that some divisions were associated with particular cities and not regions i.e. 3rd Panzer Division from Berlin and that also the regional associations were much stronger in the lower numbered divisions i.e. those raised before October 1940. Alot of the newer divisions raised after that took part of other divisions as a cadre. While these were usually from divisions already from that wehrkreis it did dilute the tight regional bias of some divisions. For example 99. ID (later 7. GJD) was created using personnel from WK XIII division's. An example of the regional distribution of soldiers is the following list of the members of Geb. Jag. Regt. 218, part of this division. I've left the Gewrman designation for the regions as they are fairly self explanatory. Whereas alot of the men are from northern Bavaria (Franken, Altbayern) or its neighbouring regions, Austrian personnel are there in large numbers and there are representatives from all across Germany. I'm not sure if this was represented throughout the rest of the division.

964 - Franken

384 - Altbayern

364 - Steiermark

352 - Pfalz

337 - Sudetenland

260 - Westfalen

200 - Rheinland

175 - Hesse

165 - Oberpfalz

158 - Wurttemberg

140 - Karnten

132 - Schlesien

118 - Thuringen

114 - Volksdeutsche

112 - Tirol

105 - Baden

89 - Sachsen

61 - Vorarlberg

57 - Salzburg

41 - Niederosterreich

40 - Brandenburg

32 - Hannover

32 - Schwaben

31 - Berlin

31 - Hamburg

30 - Warthegau

28 - Oberosterreich

23 - Wien

22 - Ostpreussen

19 - Preussen

19 - Schleswig

13 - Bohem und Mahren

12 - Magdeburg

11 - Westpreussen

10 - Mecklenburg

10 - Pommern

9 - Bremen

8 - Braunschweig

7 - Lippe

3 - Oldenburg

3 - Sudtirol

2 - Lothringen

Cheers,

Gary.

[ June 09, 2002, 06:05 AM: Message edited by: Gary T ]

[Frenchy]

Gents - a few other sites are available. If any of you come across any please let me know. I am listing them on my Trailblazer site.

http://www.trailblazersww2.org/links_germany.htm

[Michael Dorosh]

Fascinating stuff, but are Wehrkreis designations going to necessarily correspond with the regional designation of the Division or Regiment in question? As pointed out, some units (many, perhaps?) affiliated themselves with a small portion (ie a major city) within a Wehrkreis.

Nonetheless, thanks to all for this info; it is certainly a start. I think perhaps that my list will include

Unit / Wehrkreis / Designation (if different from Wehrkreis)

So my next stupid question is - was the regional designation actually that - an official designation? Or was this simply an unofficial custom that historians have picked up on and military types encouraged?

And would it be possible for a Division to have several Regiments, each having their own regionality?

And finally - did any of the "elite" units (ie those with names) have a regional affiliation? I know Prinz Eugen Division recruited from Austria IIRC, but I also know Grossdeutschland drew recruits from across the Reich in accordance with their name.

[Gary T]

Michael,

The wehrkreis did not really correspond to exact geographical areas (unfortunately for us) but it does give you a guide as to what the designation will be. This is easier for some regions than others - divisions from WK I such as 1 ID, 11 ID 1 Kav Div etc are easily distinguishable as East Prussian Divisions. Others from, for example WK VI ,are harder to define based on WK alone because the WK overlaps into a number of different regions. The only way then is to find the hometowns for that division's units and work out what area that is classed as - I don't know enough about regional areas in Germany to know off the top of my head.

With regards to pre-nazi era divisions they did have the regional title in their designations - i.e. 5. (wurttembergische) Division or 7. (bayerischen) Division. When this was officially dropped I do not know exactly but I would guess it was with the expansion of the army after 1934.

Different regiments (and battalions) within a division were affiliated with particular towns in a region - I think this was more to do with where their depot was loacted rather than it being a centre of local recruitment. For instance 6. ID was based as follows in 1939:

Stab 6. ID - Bielefeld

IR 18 - Bielefeld and Detmold

IR 37 - Osnabruck and Lingen

IR 53 - Herford, Minden, Buckeburg, Osnabruck

AR 6 - Osnabruck and Lingen

I./AR 42 - Minden

Beob. Abt. 6 - Lemgo

Pz. Abw. Abt. 6 - Herford

Pi Btl 6 - Minden

NA 6 - Bielefeld

San. Abt. 6 - Bielefeld

As to whether regional designations were unoffical I cannot say but in wehrpasses you will often find alot of ersatz units actually have the name of the town where they are based in their unit stamp. Some examples of this are on my site:

Menzel Scans

Fruhen Scans

Mussil Scans

Lerch Scans

Neubauer Scans

I have never seen a regional designation used in any entry that refers to a field unit.

Cheers,

Gary.

[ June 09, 2002, 11:29 AM: Message edited by: Gary T ]

[Michael Dorosh]

So, tell me what I've gotten wrong:

Fledging List

I don't have many of the Western Front divisions on the list yet, so this is far from complete. I do have some references of my own that I will check and hopefully add, but if anyone wants to send additional info or corrections, I'd be grateful. I will add a wehrkreis map and Gary's listing (thanks, Gary) to the page also.

If nothing else, scenario briefing writers can get a bit of mileage out of this. "...and the valiant 1st Infantry Division, drawn from East Prussia...." "...and then the crack Berliners of the 23rd Infantry Division...."

[Andreas]

Funnily enough, that is how Haupt writes Michael.

Regarding regional affiliation. Our family farm is in the vicinity of Nienburg/Weser, so my grandfather was drafted into what I suspect was the cannon company of a GR in Delmenhorst (WK X Hamburg - covering Bremen and western Niedersachsen) in 1937. After a year, he was transferred to a Wehrmacht telephone exchange in Stade (again, WK X). When war came in 1939, he was drafted back (after a three month break) to Beob-Abt. 30, affiliated, but then no longer part of ID 30 (you guessed it, WK X, Hamburg). After he was hospitalised while in France and sent back to a military hospital in Hannover in 1940, he was reposted to the depot of Beob-Abt. 26 (erstwhile part of ID. 26, (WK VI Muenster), and moved up to AG North in time for Barbarossa.

This WK is bordering on the southern edge of WK X. In fact, although no-one from Nienburg would ever admit it, there is probably more commonality with people from northern Westphalia (Minden region), than there is with the ones from, say, Oldenburg or Hamburg, in terms of Landsmannschaft. So while he was posted outside his own WK a a replacement, he stayed close to home. I guess one of the reasons he did not go back to Beob-Abt.30 was that he was a specialist in a very small branch of the artillery.

[kipanderson]

Andreas, hi,

Good site.

However, as you know I am too thick to be able to read German so can not comment very much.

All the best,

Kip.

PS. I am so thick I had to edit this post because I typed the wrong word first time round!

[ June 09, 2002, 04:48 PM: Message edited by: kipanderson ]

[Andreas]

Originally posted by kipanderson:

Andreas, hi,

Good site.

However, as you know I am too thick to be able to read German so can not comment very much.

All the best,

Kip.

Well, we can discuss it over a beer this Thursday