Wild Bill's Rumblings of War [Part IV], aka RoW

[Holien]

Hi TB thxs for the analysis it has proved quite interesting and shows that when you have a tourney with a large group of players you will get a good idea of where you are in that group using this system and the same scenarios for all.

As for Mr Winecapes idea that we are secret Beer Drinkers I do not hide that fact. I like a good pint of Old Peculier, Tangle Foot and Hob Goblin as well as the next man.

Mind you last night we cracked open a bottle of Argento, a Malbec from the Mendoza region of Argentina, which I was lucky enough to visit a couple of years ago. We will be finishing it off today over a joint of prime English Lamb.

Well must be off and process Dead Decks turn. I have a mountain to climb...

H

P.s. Thxs for upping the ante now I have even more to lose... Ahh well the best man will win.

Now if he would only send that turn back to me...

[ March 24, 2002, 06:06 AM: Message edited by: Holien ]

[Wreck]

Hi guys! I was out all day yesterday being social, and come back to ferment in WBROW! Cool, finally some new games to play.

As I wrote in one of my AARs, I figured out pretty quickly that WBW loves the "seesaw" battle, where one force is initially dominant, while the other must hold, but gets reinforcements during the game so as to bring forces to parity in the long run. So I tended to play my games towards this: on the offense, I charged as hard/fast as seemed at all safe. In particular Ranville comes to mind here, but also Real Guts, where I got to the back of the board fast enough to ambush from the side/rear the two PzIVs. On defense (which I got lots of), I played for time confident that my reinforcements would be sufficient. In that sense my relationship to the great God WBW was different than a lot of people here; I was not cursing him as the devil but praying for rain. "Gimme a tank!" I would pray... and lo! there were tanks!

Yes the old address at dc.net is no more. It's singin' w' th' heavenly choir. It is an ex-address. The verizon.net address is correct; thanks Jim.

I have the German setup out for the Berg, and the American one back to Holien for the Ranger Challenge. Flag Rush Hill, I await the setup from Warren.

[Holien]

Hi Ho Wreck the first video is on the way to you and considering the size of the game you should be through me like a dose of salts...

Please bear in mind that WB might have had a different approach on this game.

I have also sent off my poor attempt of a turn to Redeker and await the first movement plot. That game is truly massive and it will be an art to control everything.

Well the die is cast and may I have fun and glory in death if not a sip of fine SA wine.

H

[CombinedArms]

Originally posted by Bertram:

Hi all,

Got one question of my fellow RoWers: I thought the scenario "we can't wait" an excercise in futility for the Allied side (and my score reflects this perfectly). But then the planes that might come along never did materialize, so I was seriously outgunned (my opponent humbled my tanks crews by driving a TD right into the view of 2 Shermans and a M10, and killing all three of them, while the shells bounced of his armor).

Did the other Allies get those planes? And if they did not, did they make any headway?

Never got any planes in Dompaire to, do I do something wrong? Should I have promised some of the wine to the airforce?

Bertram

Well, I had the Axis in "We Can't Wait" and was thoroughly hammered by the planes. They killed my Jadgpanther within 20 second of its arrival (the TD all your shots bounced off) and planes immoblized, shocked, or killed at least 10 other vehicles. So if the planes do arrive, they can appear with a vengeance. I think they can be credited with causing one of the rare Axis defeats in that scenario.

I also got hammered by planes as the Axis in Duel at Dompaire, but there the result was less decisive.

[ March 24, 2002, 03:32 PM: Message edited by: CombinedArms ]

[Holien]

NEWS FLASH

Heavy fighting taking place in Normandy.

German Defenders fighting well but in the process of being Wrecked.

Please send help!!!

H

[Holien]

NEWS FLASH!!!

After a sharp and heavy fight the battle is over and the mist is clearing.

I can see X in the rubble and Y is moving slowly the result of the 12 minutes of action are....

Well you will all have to wait and find out once all the games of this scenario have been completed.

Results posted to TB and complaints to WB.....

H

[ March 24, 2002, 06:56 PM: Message edited by: Holien ]

[John Kettler]

Troops,

Aren't we telling tales out of school by discussing OOB, arrival times and such here? I thought that there was a dedicated thread in Scenarios just for that so that people could read the heavily censored DARs and such here without the scenario details being blown as a result.

Holien, if you're battling over a nad in the mist then I don't want to know the rest of the story. Kinkiest military objective I've ever heard of!

Regards,

John Kettler

[Holien]

Ok Ok OK some people...

My And became a nad when dslylixa struck.

What a pendant you are...

BTW Yes I do realise what I have said above. It is English humour to mix words, hence trying to inject a tad of humour into this board...

For JK just to prove it.... (Pedant!!!!)

H

Now off to bed and dream of battles yet to be fought.

[John Kettler]

(wrings hands and grimaces)

What to do about this Holien than thou attitude?

Am quite a fan of British humor and also understatement. The nad thing just begged a sally.

Regards,

John Kettler

[ March 25, 2002, 09:43 PM: Message edited by: John Kettler ]

[WineCape]

As I understand the essence of the Nabla scoring formula, it rewards more realistic play; players, when they know all is lost, will not willy-nilly sacrifice their troops, but rather pull them off the map or to a safer zone.

Thus, commanders are "cajoled" by the Nabla system in caring more for their little pixelated troops than would be otherwise the case where figting to the last standing troop is the order of the week.

Elegant!

[Holien]

Winecape I am not sure that is true you know. It does give when a large enough sample is taken a better feel for the skill of players.

However, I do not think it means a better regard for your men. The system works on scores and you get bigger scores by contesting flags. Your regard for your men is balanced by the desire to control a flag.

Flag Rush Hill will be won or lost by the last man standing on the hill and this goes against what I believed the Tourney was set up to avoid doing.

It is kinda of odd that in the final we get a game where flag rushing is expected. The other game is such a small one that it offers little scope for radical tatics or different style of play. The low number of troops and quality or lack of it limit your actions.

At least with the previous games there was far more flexibility of approach and control left to the players. And before I hear a good commander makes do with what he has got, I am just saying it is more fun to have a wider selection of approaches.

Anyway I have the turn from Redeker and will process that tonight and I await the final game with The Capt.

As for JK fair point on nad and I admire your British like humour. I guess it took years of training to aquire? And could you leave Sally out of this as she is a good friend and I do not want to know your involvement with her.

H

[John Kettler]

WineCape,

Lanzerac Manor was a featured destination for globe trekking contestants in the U.S. reality TV program "Amazing Race." New arrivals were greeted by an aged gentleman in what looked like 1700s costume.

Holien,

Sounds like you've got your hands full and also make some salient points about the philosophy of RoW. As for Sally, I'm guessing you don't want to hear about the sallyport and my intentions!

Regards,

John Kettler

[Treeburst155]

The tourney is based on points. Every point counts. You get more points if you withdraw, rather than surrender. The perfect withdrawal would see all troops move to the edge of the map, then step off simultaneously in the next turn. This avoids the morale hit when individual units are exited.

I don't think the scoring system promotes keeping your men alive, it justs promotes avoiding capture through surrender when the situation is hopeless. If you're getting killed, but taking the enemy with you at a 1:1 ratio there's no real incentive to withdraw, so the meatgrinder is still in effect.

Holien,

I don't think you'll find the actual flag rush in "Flag Rush Hill" to be that big of a deal. The game will probably be decided before the actual flag rush. The flag rush will likely see the VLs split and/or contested, so casualties will be the deciding factor. Extremely lopsided scores will probably not occur because a good portion of the points available will be contested, but this no big deal.

Both players will need to rush the hilltop, but getting into position to do so and staying alive once in the assault position is not easy. Even the "friendly" slopes become a dangerous place to be as the game progresses. The action will be on the flanks as players try to gain LOS to the enemy side of the hill. I don't think you will see a quiet 23 turn buildup to the flag rush.

I also don't think you will see much action actually on the hilltop. It's a no-mans land highly visible from all over the map. Arty will pound anybody who tries to occupy the hilltop. The flanks is where things will happen, until the very end.

Treeburst155 out.

[ March 25, 2002, 05:24 PM: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

[Treeburst155]

Holien,

After rereading your concerns about "Flag Rush Hill":

There will be no, "last man standing on the hill wins". It will be a flag rush. Both sides will likely have many people on the hill at the end contesting the flags. Both sides will suffer many casualties throughout the game, before the survivors rush the hill. These casualties will be the real deciding factor. The flag rush point split is pretty much a given. The very nature of a flag rush is that there is no "last man standing", but units from both sides.

Treeburst155 out.

[gredeker]

Originally posted by Treeburst155:

There will be no, "last man standing on the hill wins".

That's right. The winner will be whoever can pound the other side down to 15% morale first.

Flags??? We don't need no stinkin' flags!!!

[ March 25, 2002, 06:38 PM: Message edited by: redeker ]

[Treeburst155]

That's probably close to the truth. The hilltop is so dangerous that nobody will want anything to do with it until the end. Although the player should probably plan on assaulting the hilltop at the end (lots of points up there), it's really all about destruction of enemy forces IMO. I found it quite interesting. Is it a realistic tactical problem? Probably not, but interesting nonetheless.

EDIT: Hehe....thinking about the actual flagrush in this one, I even found that entertaining. It's not a last minute dive so much as it is a multi-turn assault by both sides once the fear of prolonged arty bombardment is gone due to the game ending, and the fact that your opponent will be on the hill too.

If your opponent jumps first he may get more than his share of the territory, which you may not have the time or strength to take back. The hilltop will probably be a wild firefight the last few turns... a flag rush in slow motion with everything both sides can muster, not a typical flagrush at all. You see, BOTH sides will probably be rushing the flags, not just the weaker side trying to rob some VL points from his opponent.

Treeburst155 out.

[ March 26, 2002, 12:12 AM: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

[Holien]

TB, I understand where you are coming from all I was saying is that the tourney upto this point had been historic battles with a clear emphasis on the players to play as if you were "really there" fighting with your troops.

To make sensible decisions about loss of life in pursuit of flags and to avoid gamey situations where ever possible.

I am sure that the Flag rush hill game will be entertaining and well fought. I am sure that we will spend as much time at the bottom of the hill as the top.

My concern was based upon the fact that there are a lot of flags up there and it might encourage action which does not fall within the realms of the points stated above.

If you compare it to the other games we have played it IMO lacks the same shine as playing something blind and historical.

I know we have been blessed with such a good range of scenarios and I know how hard it is to design such games. I know you have put in a lot of work and I am truly grateful for that as it has given me many hours of entertainment and a new circle of gaming friends to tease and have verbal fun with.

It is just that with these last few games they seem to be lacking the same feel as the previous games. The medium of words fails me at the moment and I will try again tonight to explain the slight concern.

I mean no disrespect for your scenario design or that of WB, it is just these last few games do not offer the same feel as I had in the games leading upto this.

They are a challenge and I will enjoy that challenge.

H

[Treeburst155]

Yeah, what happened is I didn't actually plan on any finals back when I was talking to Wild Bill about scenarios for a tourney. In order to accomodate more players and keep the number of games down, I broke things up into three sections.

At that point I needed some sort of playoff scenario(s).

As the tourney progressed I bounced several different playoff ideas around and finally decided on a three scenario round robin since Nabla came up with a good way to score such a playoff. I had NOT arranged for more researched, historical scenarios like I probably should have, so I had to scramble.

I was thrilled to get the historical, and tested, "Ranger Challenge" from Wild Bill on such short notice. The other two I "stole" from the public domain because I had played them, enjoyed them, and they were not well known.

Next time I will arrange for some historical scenarios for the playoffs right from the beginning. I'm fairly certain WineCape has already made arrangements with a well-known designer for the CMBB tourney. Whether he wants to do eight scenarios or not is unknown.

A tourney like this puts quite a demand on designers. There's lots of time involved in creating eight scenarios, especially if they are historical. For this reason there may be several designers contributing to future tourneys.

Also, I suspect that some designers don't really want to have their stuff run through a tourney because they fear the competition aspect could promote more negative feedback from people than they would normally get. The designer has to have a thick skin.

In short, getting historical scenarios, never before seen, is not that easy to do, especially on relatively short notice. We really lucked out that Wild Bill had enough free time to crank out seven scenarios for us last fall.

This has been a great tourney thanks to the reliable group of players, Wild Bill, Nabla, and of course WineCape for the prize and his time spent on the application process; but there is room for improvement, like better advance planning for the playoffs. Now who dropped the ball on that one?

Fight On!!

Treeburst155 out.

[ March 26, 2002, 05:42 AM: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

[Holien]

TB

Thxs for that.

My previous comments were in no way meant as critiscm as I know that we have been blessed with the games previous.

It is like giving people cream cakes and then giving them fruit cake. If the person had not tasted cream cake then fruit cake would have been fine, but when you have tasted cream cakes then fruit cake seems plain.

(JK please jump in here with any creamy jokes you can think of. As long as Sally is not mentioned, or her Port!!!)

I look at like this Wreck has won the tourney through his outstanding play and clear lead in the points and scoring system.

We are now in our second tourney to see if he can keep that performance up against the poor sobs who came someway behind him.

Even though the games are of a slightly different style than those previous they will still be good enough to show who the "Daddy" is.

Anyway I have the set-up for the highway to heaven game from Warren. This will be sorted tonight once I have assessed all the possible suicide approaches.

I await Redeker's 1st turn and for news on how they (Warren and Redeker) get on with WB's well crafted Rabbits Delight.

When they have finished that can we know the results for that scenario?

H

[gredeker]

Originally posted by Holien:

I await Redeker's 1st turn and for news on how they (Warren and Redeker) get on with WB's well crafted Rabbits Delight.

Holien, I'm pretty sure I sent you my first turn's movement orders Sunday night(36 hours ago); I was waiting for the first turn movie to be sent my way for me to watch and then send it back to you. :confused: Let me know if I need to resend it, but I'm stuck at work for the next 9 hours and can't resend it until then.

As far as Ranger Challenge goes, all I'll say is that battle has been joined. Did you and Wreck do TCP/IP to finish that one so quickly?

My Allied hill-climbing setup was sent to Wreck last night. Good thing the game doesn't model grenades rolling back downhill. :eek:

[WineCape]

Originally posted by John Kettler:

WineCape, Lanzerac Manor was a featured destination for globe trekking contestants in the U.S. reality TV program "Amazing Race." New arrivals were greeted by an aged gentleman in what looked like 1700s costume.

That wasn't me John!

Sidenote: Lanzerac wine estate produced the world's first bottled Pinotage (grapes were from the world's first planted pinotage vineyards at Bellevue estate), a 1959 vintage released in 1961. Every year the Nederburg Wine Auction at Paarl in April (moi always attend as the ladies there are lovely, not to mention the bloody expensive wines under the hammer) opens up with the bidding on ..a a few rare bottles of Lanzerac Pinotage's!

My head is full of these useless snippets of information.

Treeburst,

I'll approach our mystery scenario designer for RoW II again this week. He was very interested last time and agreed in principal to do the design of the scenarios for RoW II. How many scenario's do you need?

Will crack open a bottle of Methode Cap Classique Pongracz tonight with me wife - celebrating the buying of a new house today on the slopes of Stellenbosch Mountain! I'm in a good mood, so any request to sponsor another tourney apart from RoW II, you better speak up... In for a penny, in for a pound.

Cheers and Prost!

Charl Theron

----------------

"You’d be surprised how much fun you can have sober. When you get the hang of it."

-- Jack Lemmon in Days of Wine and Roses (1962)

[Holien]

Hi Redeker,

I am pretty certain 99% that I have not received your turn.

I will check my outlook when I get home. I will send an e-mail either way in about two hours time.

As a rule of thumb for future reference I do a turn in the morning before work and baring any serious problems I do multiple turns once I get home.

This weekend is Easter here in the UK and we get Friday and Monday as holiday and so can do some quicker turns if sent and depending on RL tasks such as staining new doors and fixing fences.

At the weekends I tend to do turns as they come in as I have an ISDN line and low cost tariff.

This is of course in between dealing with Real Life jobs such as gardening and spending time with my beloveded.

So if you don't get a turn within a day holler as I will have sent it and it has been lost or not got when you sent it.

As for the game on Sunday myself and Wreck locked horns around about 4pm and I was finally able to meet up with him on TCP/IP after I cleared down all my RL tasks and her in doors had retired upstairs.

The game is such a small one that you can complete it TCP/IP in an hour or two at most.

I started looking at the wooded mountain game last night and should have that out the door tonight for Warren. I too am happy that the height model is not too accurate in CM or we would both be nobbled. :eek:

H

[Bimmer]

Yet another question from someone who hasn't paid as much attention to this board as he should have: Have the RoW scenarios yet been made available for download anywhere, and if so, where? Thanks again.

[gredeker]

Originally posted by Bimmer:

Yet another question from someone who hasn't paid as much attention to this board as he should have: Have the RoW scenarios yet been made available for download anywhere, and if so, where? Thanks again.

Three of them are available at Scenario Depot. They all start with "RoW" so search under "R".

[gredeker]

Holien, I'll go ahead and resend the turn when I get home this evening. I can see that the time differential will probably slow things down a bit on my end, as most of my CM time occurs after 9 p.m. I can also sometimes do a turn when I go home for lunch, but right now our scenario is so huge that I may not have the time to complete a full turn during the middle of the day. Weekends are so unpredictable that I can't commit to much - I might be out of town or busy with "honey-do's" the whole time, or I might do four turns in one day. It's a crapshoot.